Applying a golpeaor - bad for the guitar? (Full Version)

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Adam -> Applying a golpeaor - bad for the guitar? (Mar. 23 2007 8:02:12)

I have a Raimundo classical that I've been playing flamenco on for a while, and FINALLY I got a golpeador (well, a tap plate I found in the store, at least--I hope it's good, I'll post pics tomorrow for approval :P ), but when I bought it, the guy who worked the store warned me that it dampens the sound of the guitar. Is this true? If I throw a tap plate on a classical guitar, will it really sound noticeably worse? While I'm asking questions :) don't want to go into this uninformed...is there any particular shape/cutting that it's advisable to do before applying the tap plate? And lastly, should I bring it to a music shop to have them apply it, or can I do it myself without worry of screwing it up?



nhills -> RE: Applying a golpeaor - bad for the guitar? (Mar. 23 2007 13:01:19)

This is a topic I've been concerned about even on dedicated flamenco guitars. It's always seemed to me that installing a plastic golpeador is like glueing a piece of rubber to the top and still expecting it to vibrate.

Wood golpeadors seem like a better idea, since they can be treated as part of the bracing - just on the outside instead of inside.

But... What do the luthiers here think? Do you do anything to compensate for them?

Cheers,
Norman



Georg -> RE: Applying a golpeaor - bad for the guitar? (Mar. 23 2007 17:12:29)

Hi ramparts, here are a few things you might consider:

1. When you play flamenco without the golpeador it will be even worse in a year.
2. Most steel string guitars also have a kind of glopeador, but nobody cares if the sound gets worse, they just shut up and play their guitars (to say it with Frank Zappa)[;)]
3. There are golpeadors which can be removed after playing, and be applied again, but I have not tested them.
4. If you can afford a few bucks, buy a flamenco guitar cheap but decent (e.g. the one from Yamaha) and use the classical for classical guitar music and the flamenco guitar for flamenco.

My personal experience:

I applied a classical guitar with a golpeador, and I did not hear a big difference, to be honest I did not hear any difference at all, though I'm sure there are people who claim to do so.

I have never heard of wooden golpeadors, and it sounds strange to glue wood on top of the guitar to protect the wood[8|].

Greetings
Georg



nhills -> RE: Applying a golpeaor - bad for the guitar? (Mar. 23 2007 17:49:21)

For example, a '23 Santos Hernandez and a '65 Marcelino Lopez.

Norman



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Adam -> RE: Applying a golpeaor - bad for the guitar? (Mar. 23 2007 17:52:46)

Thanks for the help! Waiting on a luthier then :) For the flamencos, here's the one that I got:

http://www.maplestreetguitars.com/show_item.php?dep=11&cat=PKGD&sku=71013700639

It calls it a "golpe plate" which gives me a bit of confidence, but just to be sure, is this the right size/shape/etc.?

Not sure where I'd find a wood golpeador...or anything besides this one, actually, I went to as many stores as I could and they all only had that. As for buying a cheap Yamaha flamenco...well, a) I don't have the money, b) I don't play classical so this guitar would go to waste, and c) I love my guitar :D

Thanks again, all!



Arash -> RE: Applying a golpeaor - bad for the guitar? (Mar. 23 2007 18:40:55)

Why dont you use a transparent Golpeador?
Its a self-adhesive plastic foil , costs about 8 Euros and it is not so ugly like those white plates!
And it protects your guitar as good as the plates.



Adam -> RE: Applying a golpeaor - bad for the guitar? (Mar. 23 2007 18:54:02)

God forbid I use a white golpeador!! hehe...that one may look white but it says clear, so I'm not worried. If it turns out to be white, I'll just go look again :P

Hmm where might I find self-adhesive plastic foil then?



MarkMc -> RE: Applying a golpeaor - bad for the guitar? (Mar. 23 2007 19:15:02)

Hi Ramparts,

I did the same thing with my old classical before I got a flamenco.
I bought a clear self adhesive one from stringsbymail.com:

http://www.stringsbymail.com/acsub.asp?tSer=83&dSub=Golpeadores

However, it says they're out of stock right now. It looks like there's a cling on one though. I'm not sure how well that would protect though...

You could always email the folks at stringsbymail. In my experience they've always been really nice and helpful. Plus it's a great place to buy strings.



Georg -> RE: Applying a golpeaor - bad for the guitar? (Mar. 23 2007 19:20:25)

quote:

ORIGINAL: nhills

For example, a '23 Santos Hernandez and a '65 Marcelino Lopez.

Norman



Hm... next time I'll keep my mouth shut.[&:]
Do you know what wood this is? It must be really hard.



Adam -> RE: Applying a golpeaor - bad for the guitar? (Mar. 23 2007 20:31:18)

Thanks Mark!! Did you have any big issues with the classical when/after applying the golpeador?



Hugh -> RE: Applying a golpeaor - bad for the guitar? (Mar. 23 2007 20:33:43)

Quote...............
If you can afford a few bucks, buy a flamenco guitar cheap but decent (e.g. the one from Yamaha) and use the classical for classical guitar music and the flamenco guitar for flamenco.

Ramparts. I started off with a classical, using it for flamenco. I was going to put the clear sticky plates on it to save buying a proper flamenco, I even had them ordered.
But I had a look at some sites and decided to buy the afore mentioned Yamaha 171 sf. I'm really glad I did now, because when I pick up my classical and try to play flamenco on it, it sounds and plays crap, compared to the 171 which is built for the job.
Its not that costly. I got mine for under £ 250. Not a top end instrument by any means, but it does the job for now.



Ron.M -> RE: Applying a golpeaor - bad for the guitar? (Mar. 23 2007 20:34:14)

At the end of the day, I reckon if you've got a fairly inexpensive guitar to begin with, then there is really nothing much to screw up.
I doubt if applying ANY sort of golpeador would make any audible difference.
When you start making changes to high-end guitars, then that's a different story.
You could completely ruin the resale value of the guitar for a start.
Best leave these ones to the professionals IMO, preferably returning it to the original maker.

cheers

Ron



nhills -> RE: Applying a golpeaor - bad for the guitar? (Mar. 23 2007 20:52:23)

Wood golpeadors are usually maple - in these cases, fiddle-back (flame-grain.) The Conde "re-creation" of a Domingo Esteso uses birds-eye maple.

Norman



Ted G -> RE: Applying a golpeaor - bad for the guitar? (Mar. 24 2007 13:16:56)

This was many years ago, but I installed the same golpeador myself on my student classical. I think I had to trim a bit off the bottom of both pieces in order to accommodate the bridge after centering the pieces onto the sound hole. Just start at one end and peel back the backing as you press the golpeador onto the guitar to remove any bubbles. If I can do it, anyone can. If there is any sound difference, I can't tell.



JBASHORUN -> RE: Applying a golpeaor - bad for the guitar? (Mar. 24 2007 14:25:18)

Ramparts, don't worry about adhesive foil. The Herco golpeadores (like the one you ordered) are SELF adhesive, meaning that you just have to peel of the backing and stick it on. I have one ready to apply to my first guitar once its finished. Although I might investigate making my own Birds'eye maple one...

Jb



Adam -> RE: Applying a golpeaor - bad for the guitar? (Mar. 24 2007 18:01:01)

Thanks so much for all the help! And so the Herco golpeadores are of the right material and, yes, aesthetic "style" for flamenco?



JBASHORUN -> RE: Applying a golpeaor - bad for the guitar? (Mar. 24 2007 18:08:38)

yes the herco ones are fine. perfecto! you shouldn't have any problems, but if you do it will probably just be minor adjustments to the shape that need doing. but wait until it arrives and you've tested it before worrying about that.

Jb



Adam -> RE: Applying a golpeaor - bad for the guitar? (Mar. 24 2007 18:27:42)

Oh yeah, I bought it in a store so it's sitting around just waiting :) I'll probably cut it with an exacto knife or one of those...and do I just clean the guitar's top a bit with a white t-shirt or something before putting it on?



Georg -> RE: Applying a golpeaor - bad for the guitar? (Mar. 24 2007 18:38:55)

If you want, I can send you a video, where it is shown how it's done. (about 5mb)



Adam -> RE: Applying a golpeaor - bad for the guitar? (Mar. 24 2007 18:45:23)

That would be tremendous :) My user name at gmail.com if you don't mind...thanks!



Georg -> RE: Applying a golpeaor - bad for the guitar? (Mar. 24 2007 19:08:15)

sent



mentrida -> RE: Applying a golpeaor - bad for the guitar? (Mar. 24 2007 22:44:02)

Norman,

I've always wondered about this topic too.

Why have we moved on to the plastic golpeadores? is it because they are cheaper or easier to replace without damaging guitar? or they considered thin enough that they don't interfere with sound?

Although I like the idea of the wood ones, it seems they would be damaged like the guitar top and need replacing often. Is that the case, or is the maple hard enough to last?

Thanks for your input.
Simon



ChiyoDad -> RE: Applying a golpeaor - bad for the guitar? (Dec. 7 2007 17:49:32)

I'm planning to install a clear golpeador to my Yamaha C45 ($89 laminated spruce-top) so I can practice some right-hand techniques. I ordered my material from Luthiers Mercantile although I probably should have just gotten it from Strings-by-Mail.

I don't expect it to affect the sound that much but I would like to minimize the size of the tap plate material on the soundboard.

Is it best to install plates on both sides of the strings or just on the treble side?



jshelton5040 -> RE: Applying a golpeaor - bad for the guitar? (Dec. 7 2007 20:08:05)

quote:

Why have we moved on to the plastic golpeadores? is it because they are cheaper or easier to replace without damaging guitar? or they considered thin enough that they don't interfere with sound?



If you had ever played a guitar with a golpeador made of wood you wouldn't need to ask this question. As they wear they become scratchy and uneven. The sound is not the crisp crack like the plastic ones. They get dirty from the oils in your fingers and look terrible. They're much thicker than plastic so are more likely to damp the sound. They are normally two pieces so they don't protect the top under the strings. Plastic is better in every way.



Ron.M -> RE: Applying a golpeaor - bad for the guitar? (Dec. 7 2007 21:34:56)

quote:

Plastic is better in every way.


I know nothing about guitar building, but that's what I'd have thought too.
I mean two big bits of wood stuck to the soundboard must have some kind of effect, regardless of how "natural" or "green/non-synthetics" your world view is?
Especially if they are NAILED on!! [:D][:D]

cheers,

Ron



Georg -> RE: Applying a golpeaor - bad for the guitar? (Dec. 7 2007 22:14:45)

quote:

Especially if they are NAILED on!!





Would be very Gipsy though



nhills -> RE: Applying a golpeaor - bad for the guitar? (Dec. 7 2007 23:28:26)

This is a topic that has long interested me.

In general, I agree with John about the disadvantages of wood golpeadores, but I have also thought the following:

1) Plastic is not an acoustic material - it doesn't vibrate like wood; therefore, it may be thought of as damping the vibration of the top - not as bad as gluing a sheet of rubber on the top, but.... What IS the actual effect of adding plastic golpeadores?

2) The internal bracing of a guitar may be changed to account for a wood golpeador. Since the golpeador is wood, it can vibrate and can be thought of as part of the bracing - just on the outside instead of on the inside.

Comments very much appreciated - particularly from the luthiers here.

Norman



jshelton5040 -> RE: Applying a golpeaor - bad for the guitar? (Dec. 8 2007 1:33:37)

quote:

1) Plastic is not an acoustic material - it doesn't vibrate like wood; therefore, it may be thought of as damping the vibration of the top - not as bad as gluing a sheet of rubber on the top, but.... What IS the actual effect of adding plastic golpeadores?

2) The internal bracing of a guitar may be changed to account for a wood golpeador. Since the golpeador is wood, it can vibrate and can be thought of as part of the bracing - just on the outside instead of on the inside.



I can't comment on the damping effect of a plastic golpeador other than to say that I've applied hundreds of self adhesive golpeadors and never noticed any difference in the voice of the guitar.

I'm not a physicist but I suspect the mass of the golpeador has a lot more to do with damping than the material it's made of. Furthermore a plate is not my idea of the optimum way to brace a top.



ChiyoDad -> RE: Applying a golpeaor - bad for the guitar? (Dec. 8 2007 1:59:55)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jshelton5040
I can't comment on the damping effect of a plastic golpeador other than to say that I've applied hundreds of self adhesive golpeadors and never noticed any difference in the voice of the guitar.

John, what thickness do you use: 0.005", 0.011" or 0.015"?



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Applying a golpeaor - bad for the guitar? (Dec. 8 2007 11:14:49)

quote:

If you had ever played a guitar with a golpeador made of wood you wouldn't need to ask this question. As they wear they become scratchy and uneven. The sound is not the crisp crack like the plastic ones. They get dirty from the oils in your fingers and look terrible. They're much thicker than plastic so are more likely to damp the sound. They are normally two pieces so they don't protect the top under the strings. Plastic is better in every way.


I agree, I agree, I agree. Flamenco guitars are guitars with big tapplates and the plastic ones are the best.



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