Music Question (Full Version)

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n85ae -> Music Question (Mar. 16 2007 14:56:48)

Here's a quandary

I play guitar, and it is largely a mix of different styles, jazz, classical, etc. I have
an assortment of instrumental guitar pieces which I have made up, and play
what category they are ... ? Who know's, they're my music.

Well, anyway, since I've been working on learning Flamenco, and have
developed pretty decent technique, naturally I play stuff using it.

Well, Hmm.. Ok, so if I play something that is capo'd at the second fret, and
it is largely A->Bb, por medio, etc. It sounds Flamenco, but ...

Here's the quandary, I KNOW it's not any particular Palos, etc. And to a non
flamenco person hears it, they'd say - Hey that's really cool. But to somebody
on this website their gonna say, "what the f--- is that crap"?

Of course, my ear is tuned into Flamenco enough, that I know it is not really
flamenco. SO I basically feel like I can't play these things I've made up
because they don't sound right...

Does that makes sense? Because it sounds like a Bulerias, but it's out of
Compas, now I can't play it because I don't feel right about it. Does anybody
else have similar feelings?

Sigh, then my kids will become teenage and ...


Regards,
Jeff



duende -> RE: Music Question (Mar. 16 2007 15:09:13)

Dont calle it a buleria and your fine[:)]
Zyriab of pdl is no palo either.
i got a tune called Triana witch is just a simple 6/8 feel and its no palo.

still it sounds flamenco. as long as your not saying that it is a specific palo you would be fine. why not let us hear it[:)]



Zorro02 -> RE: Music Question (Mar. 16 2007 15:17:03)

Learning a particular compas requires both time and effort. I have been studying flamenco for 4 years and still have difficulty at maintaining an appropriate compas. I started with a buleria, which is perhaps one of the most difficult to master.
I suppose it depends on what you want.... Do you want to mess around with flamenco sounding chords or do you want to play true flamenco, which will be recognised by flamenco guitar players, dancers or singers? If it is the latter I would prepare yourself for a long but enjoyable learning process.
An excellent starting point would be to download the FREE flamenco metronome available on this site. I have just downloaded it! Wish it was around four years ago, it would have helped and probably speeded up assimilation of my compas.

Good Luck.



JBASHORUN -> RE: Music Question (Mar. 16 2007 15:28:51)

Yes, I feel the same... I can play a few things that SOUND like Flamenco to the average listener, but to the trained ear, they are NOT really Flamenco. I have colleagues on my luthiery course, who as soon as you mention the word "Flamenco" they burst into some rasgueados and shout "Ole!" at the end, without a clue as to what compas even is. I guess it depends how seriously you take it... if you want to play Flamenco properly and seriously, I think the compas is unavoidable. But if you're just playing for the fun of it, and no experts are listening, then there's nothing wrong with playing whatever comes to mind. just as long as you are clear not to "pretend" its Flamenco when it really isn't.

Jb



Ricardo -> RE: Music Question (Mar. 16 2007 15:40:42)

Everything you say makes perfect sense to me, I have had similar feeling in the past, before I decided to learn for real. I was also still playing with pick. So when I started to learn the real right hand techniques, that happened simultaneously with learning the authentic strumming patterns and stuff. I think it is important to first learn some traditional or at least "authentic" flamenco very well first, before trying to "compose" any of your own "flamenco". In the mean time, I think it is fine to experiment make up your own music, whatever it is. Just keep in mind, even though it is not real flamenco, and not some other genre, it is not such an "original" idea. I hear that style of music all the time. I call it psuedo flamenco.

Ricardo



Jon Boyes -> RE: Music Question (Mar. 16 2007 16:14:34)

There is no law against playing music that is influenced by flamenco, have fun with it and don't feel guilty. I recorded a CD full of the stuff and my conscience is clear [:D]

...just be sure to know your fandangos from your tangos if you want to accompany [;)]

If you keep feeling dissatisfied with what you are playing and yearn for the real thing, well dive in and learn it.



n85ae -> RE: Music Question (Mar. 16 2007 17:33:47)

I actually do make a serious effort to learn real stuff, it is very difficult. I have
this Old Soleares which I plug away at, and make a couple bars more progress
from time to time, eventually I will master it. I have several Bulerias I work at
as well because they sound so cool. As well, I work on the Nunez stuff, etc.

Basic technique is actually the easiest thing. Tremolo and picado, just
require repetition to build speed. Rasqueado's work well, just a matter of hand
strength, learning how to do them, and digging in enough to get the right
sound.

I got the Flamenco metronome. It is frustratingly hard to keep track of where
I'm at with it. But I can keep on the beat with a conventional metronome. The
Flamenco one, is frustrating because so often, it drops on beat 1 (12, etc)
and I'm like, how the heck did I get here, I'm supposed to be on beat 3? :)
Grr... Little things like accidentally adding a beat, or subrtracting a beat here
and there. Actually this one is so frustrating it makes me want to quit a lot,
and I do in fact quit a lot. Just I keep trying over again.

Actually I've only been seriously attempting Flamenco for about 1 year now,
so I realize that's a very short time. In fact just that one year has made
dramatics imrpovements to my playing anyway.

Posting something, I will certainly do that as soon as I get some time. Actually
I'll post something which is uniquely my own flamenco-ish stuff, and not any
particular flamenco form and see what people think.

Jeff



Arash -> RE: Music Question (Mar. 16 2007 17:45:51)

Jeff, you say that now "you dont feel right about it....." ..in my eyes: thats very good!

Dont look at it in a negative way........it shows that you you are seriously interested to learn and play real flamenco......that means it is time to relax and to start with be basics again (compas, etc.....). And this is no problem ,,,it takes a little bit time..but as you already have experience in guitar playing (jazz, classic , etc) you just need to learn the compas rules and practice a little bit and thats it.....

i did the same some time ago.....an example : i played a bulerias ,put that video to youtube......sounds not bad....everyone is saying : Olee....good. etc....but i felt that i had many mistakes regarding compas. etc..and that if i continue this way , i wont be happy at the end....
I had the same feeling like you.
So i started again and i am now practicing slower , but try to play in a correct way...and i enjoy it very much because is see and hear that it makes sence and that it sounds authentic! You know what i mean ?

So if you are asking if makes sence that you dont feel right about it ? ....Yes!
My suggestion is: stop playing something undefinable and go the hard way!
You will enjoy it later much more! I promise!

quote:

There is no law against playing music that is influenced by flamenco, have fun with it and don't feel guilty. I recorded a CD full of the stuff and my conscience is clear


Jon , ok but you are playing flamenco , ok not traditional style but nuevo flamenco, rumba. etc.....and i am sure that you can also play bulerias , solea, etc........in compas
And i think this is something different than what jeff is trying to say.

Arash



n85ae -> RE: Music Question (Mar. 16 2007 18:17:16)

Yep, that's the problem. If I play something that sounds like a Bulerias
and I'm playing back and forth on A, Bb, and I do some picado runs,
interesting stuff in between, etc. Ok, I have the general idea that I'm
in compas. However, now lets say I played A, and shifted from that to
an Am, followed by G, F, E, etc. and worked into por arriba, then after
a bit used a C and used that as a route back into por medio. This all
sounds interesting because I shifted from A Phrygian, to E, and then
back. Is it Flamenco?

I don't understand the rules for chord changes, etc. This is causing me a lot
of trouble. I know scales, and chords, etc. also rhythm is one thing, that's straightforward 12,1,2,3,etc. Just chord changes, and the rules for how to
use them

I have perused a bunch of sites, and have about a 6 inch deep stack of
tabs at home to work on, etc. But it would be sure nice if somebody could
provide basically just a chord chart of a bulerias for example. Which says
ok play these chords for x-number of bars, put a 6 bar falseta here, then
play these chords for x-number more bars, then add another falseta, and
finally then to end the whole thing play these chord changes, etc. Just a
basic roadmap, not tablature, not notation just a simple structural diagram.

Any help like this would be much appreciated. Particularly for a Bulerias
since it is the one I most like the sound of.



duende -> RE: Music Question (Mar. 16 2007 19:03:06)

rules of chord changes...

for example.

change chords on 3 and 10 practice. (solea) E7th on 3 AM on 10. A7 on 3 DM on 10 D7 on 3 G on 10 G7 on 3 C on 10 C7 on 3 F on 10 then go AM G F on the following 1 2 3, and end with F E F on 7 8 9 finnish with the typical 10 11 12 solea ending.

this might be fuzzy to read so take a paper and mark the compas cycle 1 to 12 then just write the chords on 3 and 10 following this cycle.
this is just one indea on how to get use to changeing chords.

if you give me your e-mail i can send you some stuff. chord stuff.



n85ae -> RE: Music Question (Mar. 16 2007 19:11:50)

n85ae(at)yahoo.com



Per Hallgren -> RE: Music Question (Mar. 16 2007 19:46:36)

per.hallgren@mbox301.swipnet.se

Jag är mycket tacksam om jag får åka snålskjuts på Jeff's inlägg. Han uttrycker mycket av det jag känner själv. Tack

I feel the same as Jeff, as I have told Henrik in Swedish.



Ricardo -> RE: Music Question (Mar. 16 2007 21:44:10)

n85ae, a lot of your questions will be answered if you sit down and start to learn and apply things gradually. You have a stack of tabs. So do I, and I don't plan to get "through it" any time soon. Understand when you learn flamenco, you don't need to go from point A-Z. That is not the point or the goal. Just focus on FALSETAS. ONE at a time, and get ONE down very well with the basic metronome. No extra notes or missing notes, just perfect and even. AT the same time work on ONE or two basic or fundamental compas strumming patterns. In your case, "woody wood pecker" over and over would be good to start internalizing the compas feeling.

But get it out of your head that you need to "get through that solea one day". That is not the way for advancing quick in flamenco. Chord progessions, scales, rhythms, will all come with time so long as you keep focused on the small building blocks that make flamenco guitar what it is.

Ricardo



Mark2 -> RE: Music Question (Mar. 17 2007 0:45:41)

Regarding modulation, keep in mind that in traditional flamenco, there is modulation when accompanying cante. Listen to Camaron and you'll hear various modulations, many times in the entrada of a bulerias. This listening will answer the questions you have about common chord usage and structure. Also in a juerga, when a different singer starts singing, often there is a modulation to fit the new singer's range or the tones he sings, including the one from por medio to por arriba you described. Various guitarists have taken a cue from this and do these type of things in solos as well.
But what I'm getting from your message is that you'll probably never feel quite right about playing "almost flamenco" so you might as well spend most of your practise time concentrating on what you don't know as opposed to playing around with what you do already have. Then you can have your cake and eat it too. But I certainly wouldn't feel bad about writing music that is not flamenco, even if it uses flamenco techniques and other musical devices associated with flamenco.



guitarbuddha -> RE: Music Question (Mar. 17 2007 0:53:42)

Ricardo I went on a fishing trip few weeks ago and caught loads of fish. I have never been fishing before but the fish I caught looked real pretty.

When I got home I put them in the freezer.

I had a friend come round who knows a lot about fish and asked him what kind of fish they were. When we got to the freezer the ice had turned to water some days before ( I keep my freezer in the cellar ). He said that they were carp, inedible and very very off.

For a moment I was worried but then I realised that he was mean and jealous of my pretty fish and trying to take adantage of the fact that I have no sense of smell. So I didn't let him trick me onto canceling my big fish eating party for this weekend where all my friends are invited and we're all going to enjoy eating my pretty fish.

The thing is Ricardo I've never cooked before and my question for you is
SHOULD I FRY THEM ?



Guest -> RE: Music Question (Mar. 17 2007 1:28:01)

quote:

Ricardo I went on a fishing trip few weeks ago and caught loads of fish. I have never been fishing before but the fish I caught looked real pretty.

When I got home I put them in the freezer.

I had a friend come round who knows a lot about fish and asked him what kind of fish they were. When we got to the freezer the ice had turned to water some days before ( I keep my freezer in the cellar ). He said that they were carp, inedible and very very off.

For a moment I was worried but then I realised that he was mean and jealous of my pretty fish and trying to take adantage of the fact that I have no sense of smell. So I didn't let him trick me onto canceling my big fish eating party for this weekend where all my friends are invited and we're all going to enjoy eating my pretty fish.

The thing is Ricardo I've never cooked before and my question for you is
SHOULD I FRY THEM ?


Did u make this story up?[:D] sure if the carp were off theyre inedible, but i have heard you can eat carp if prepared properly(but i never tried carp). generally they dont have a great reputation as a good eating fish. I think too because they are bottom feeders they can eat a lot crap and that may effect the taste and i think they have a lot of bones as well. Over here thay are an introduced species and have infested our main river system and its illegal to throw them back in.



Ricardo -> RE: Music Question (Mar. 17 2007 5:12:58)

quote:

The thing is Ricardo I've never cooked before and my question for you is
SHOULD I FRY THEM ?


Sure...DEEP fry. But I will have the chicken, thanks.[;)]

Oh, yeah...how does that relate exactly??????



Guest -> RE: Music Question (Mar. 17 2007 8:25:29)

hmmmm...somethings fishy here[&:]



gt -> RE: Music Question (Mar. 17 2007 12:44:54)

Hey Jeff, that's exactly my situation right now as well, except for the piles and piles of tabs :)

I've been checking out falsetas, chord progressions and rythyms at you tube lately as well as a book I have and have been trying to fit some of the parts from you tube into the bulerias from the book. It sounds good to me and I like playing it, but I know have to sit in front of a flamenco metronome to really get it in compas and sounding authentic.

Any chance you can send me the same material Duende? My email is
geoff at leukaemia.com

Cheers,
Geoff



Thomas Whiteley -> RE: Music Question (Mar. 17 2007 16:49:50)

quote:

Any help like this would be much appreciated. Particularly for a Bulerias
since it is the one I most like the sound of.


Try my Bulerias Handbook.

By the way I like to start my students out on Soleares. I have a handbook for that too.

I knew some Gitanos who said, “Gitanos invented Bulerias so no one else could play it”! [:D]



Thomas Whiteley -> RE: Music Question (Mar. 17 2007 17:01:24)

quote:

I have
this Old Soleares which I plug away at, and make a couple bars more progress
from time to time, eventually I will master it.


According to what I have been told Soleares was originally in A major, and I have a copy of one. It sounds interesting.



gt -> RE: Music Question (Mar. 18 2007 2:34:55)

thanks for all the resources fellas ... much appreciated



n85ae -> RE: Music Question (Mar. 18 2007 15:09:27)

Tom - It is titled "Soleares Antigua" from an old Mariano Cordoba book. If I
get some time, I will scan and post it. The chord change stuff though that
I was talking about, was not from it. It was just some general improvisational
stuff I was mentioning as an example of what I don't know if it is Flamenco
or not.

Ricardo - I keep hearing about "Woody woodpecker", now if I was a sarcastic
guy and knew you better I might make a crack about your obsession with
Woody or the Woodpecker? Or is that Woody, and his woodpecker? In any
case, I'm not so I'll refrain ... :) See, just like you don't know my guitar
playing, I don't know your sense of humor :)

My guitar playing is decent, and the "woody woodpecker" thing is not the
problem. It is just hard to keep track of where I'm at with Flamenco rythms,
which is frustrating, but I'm sure that fix itself with enough practice. I can
definetly play stuff that sound Flamenco, BUT again, rules for chord changes,
etc. You would think were simple but it's the rare discussion that seems to
mention them. I did see stuff on Tom's website, so come Monday I'll have a good look at it. Thanks!

Ok, Carp - Eat fish at a CHinese restaraunt, you're gonna eat a lot of Carp.
Carp are their staple fish. I know, my wife is Chinese. Plus eating rice a lot
builds strong nails (Ricardo). Take a look at any Asian's fingernails. They
never have nail problems to speak of. Carp just got a bad reputation,
because some elitist sport fisherman call them a garbage fish.

Ok, I gotta get back to work on the house, the toilet drain broke, and I'm
the family plumber. What a crappy job (pun intended).

Thanks for the stuff Duende! I rarely internet on the weekend, so that's
why the delayed reply.

Regards,
Jeff



Thomas Whiteley -> RE: Music Question (Mar. 18 2007 15:47:07)

quote:

Tom - It is titled "Soleares Antigua" from an old Mariano Cordoba book.


I know the piece well. That was Mariano's second book - the first one was published in 1965. I have known Mariano since 1959 and he is a good friend and teacher. I have to call him so we can take him out to lunch.

One thing Mariano likes to do with his students is mark up your book in red ink, to add new goodies and modify what was published.

Being the family plumber is never any fun! [:D]



Ricardo -> RE: Music Question (Mar. 18 2007 19:32:56)

quote:

My guitar playing is decent, and the "woody woodpecker" thing is not the
problem. It is just hard to keep track of where I'm at with Flamenco rythms,
which is frustrating, but I'm sure that fix itself with enough practice. I can
definetly play stuff that sound Flamenco, BUT again, rules for chord changes,
etc.


My point was that for flamenco guitar, strumming compas is tough to get a handle on at first because it is not very repetative. There are lots of different patterns happening in a single piece. I think if rhythm is your problem, as you stated, it would be good to do something very repetative to drive home and internalize the rhythmic phrase. The woody woodpecker thing is a famous arpegio of paco that has the up and down melody similar to woody's laugh. It gets used quite a lot in compas strumming of bulerias, so I thought that was a funny way to describe it.

Ricardo



Guest -> [Deleted] (Mar. 18 2007 19:37:48)

[Deleted by Admins]



guitarbuddha -> RE: Music Question (Mar. 18 2007 19:48:07)

You really have to establish which species of carp you are dealing with. Some are palatable some are not.... some are poisonous , all are bad when off. All of my friends threw up.

Maybe I just need to cook them differently ?

Maybe I need to know exactly what I'm cooking to get it right.

Maybe if you have too many fish to fry then thats a problem ?

You need a teacher.



Mark2 -> RE: Music Question (Mar. 18 2007 23:35:41)

Hey man, throw the carp back-they suck.



guitarbuddha -> RE: Music Question (Mar. 19 2007 0:06:34)

It sure seems likely Mark.



Guest -> RE: Music Question (Mar. 19 2007 0:17:08)

quote:

Hey man, throw the carp back

you could do that...or strap it round the third fret and use it as a capo.



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