Un, dos, tres - what's the strongest accent in 12-compas? (Full Version)

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sianturi -> Un, dos, tres - what's the strongest accent in 12-compas? (Mar. 10 2007 12:59:17)

Hi,

I'd like to ask you about your opinion about accents in 12-compas, eg bulerias or alegrias. So far I did not found any sources that can tell me about that priority of the accents, ie 12, 3, 6, 8, 10. Are they all equal, or are some more equal than others ;-)

What's maybe pretty obvious is that the 'tres' is the strongest accent, but what about the others? If 'd have to order them by importance I'd guess 3, 10, 6, 8, 12.

Also I begin to develop the habit to count aloud or silently 'un, dos, tres' once in each compas, emphasizing the 'tres', of course, just to remember me about the importantcy of the 'tres'. Not always, but increasingly.

What do you think?

Thanks,
Sianturi



Ricardo -> RE: Un, dos, tres - what's the strongest accent in 12-compas? (Mar. 10 2007 20:23:16)

Sound wise it can depend on what you are playing, or the dancer is dancing etc. But FEELING wise, always 12 and 6. They are about equal in strength, and mark the "head" of the two halves of the compas. In fact you can actually cut or add half compases in this manner. Think of 3 or 4, or 10 as "tail" accents. Often a chord change happens on the "tail" accent, which takes some getting used to.

Sometimes when improvising on bulerias say, someone forces a "tail" accent which mathematically might come on "4", but it ends up FEELING like 10. Hence the next strong beat, 6, becomes the head beat of the next compas. That is why it is best to learn the feel of the rhythm BEFORE learning how to count it. It is much easier to get a handle on IMO.

Hope that helps.

Ricardo



sianturi -> RE: Un, dos, tres - what's the strongest accent in 12-compas? (Apr. 15 2007 21:14:37)

Hi Ricardo,

so you recommend to think in half-compases. This came quite unexpected for me, so I had to think about it for while. For sure there is reason for it. Half compases definitely have been used by the pros. Also it's mathematically obvious to divide the compas into 3+3 and 2+2+2.

Anyway, this is all too theoretical, maybe a concrete example helps. So I like to practice the beginning of 'Jerezana' and the end of 'Punta del Faro'. For me the idea of a rushing "Un, dos, tres", helps me a lot, also I pretend the compas starts on 1, not 12. The strongest accent is 3 and the weakest 12.

I like especially the rushing "Un, dos, tres", because it's so easy that you can teach it a child. It's big fun to find and count aloud the 1, 2, 3 in a not too jazzy Bulerias.

Of course, after a lot of practice you would possibly not count anymore, but still feel the rush towards the 3.

What do you think?
Sianturi



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guitarbuddha -> RE: Un, dos, tres - what's the strongest accent in 12-compas? (Apr. 16 2007 1:37:19)

Jerezana DOES start on one ( well the f is on the and of one ). The rasgueado section of Punto Del Faro DOES start on one. Also the rasgueada section of Nunez' Jucal. Incidentally if the introduction of Jucal doestnt contain demi compasses then Ill eat my hat.

These are occasions where the Compas of alegrias is borrowed for bulerias playing. That is 2/4, 3/4, 4/4, 3/4 starting on 1 in flamenco speak. Notice that here the compas splits into two demi compas which are unequal (five then seven.)

As for the business about where the main accent lies well. It's probably best to get to know the nature of all the accents and MUCH MORE importantly wether an accent represents a downbeat or an accented upbeat. There is always an accent on twelve but if it is an upbeat then alegrias compas is being used ( like in a really fast solea por bulerias ).

Like Ricardo says ten is is really important to bulerias ( and solea and alegrias ) as there is often a harmonic conclusion here and that is one of the main distinction between flamenco and most other forms of music this offset conclusion.

I think a lot of this would be cleared up if people used the correct time signatures in transcriptions.



Ricardo -> RE: Un, dos, tres - what's the strongest accent in 12-compas? (Apr. 16 2007 16:12:35)

quote:

There is no such thing as a half compas in Bulerias.


Hmm. Terminology problem again. Depends on how you want to define a SINGLE compas of bulerias. 12 counts or 6 counts? If you are willing to say, like when a dancers says "give me one compas"...that that means a 12 count cuadrao phrase, then you are WRONG amigo.

Anyway for the record, even if you DID define 6 beats as ONE compas, killing the meaning of "half compas=6 beats", well, then there are actually examples out there of true half compases. Namely Desde del Condado by N. Miguel and La Tumbona by Paco.

quote:

As for the business about where the main accent lies well. It's probably best to get to know the nature of all the accents and MUCH MORE importantly wether an accent represents a downbeat or an accented upbeat. There is always an accent on twelve but if it is an upbeat then alegrias compas is being used ( like in a really fast solea por bulerias ).


Sorry, but "12" as most folks count it is never an "up beat", regardless if you play a very accented "1,2,3" right after or not.

Ricardo



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a_arnold -> RE: Un, dos, tres - what's the strongest accent in 12-compas? (Apr. 16 2007 17:25:26)

I KNOW I've heard 6-beat compas for bulerias -- but as a brief interlude mixed in with the more usual 12 (it never went on for very long, but he did it more than once).

It went: G(1) G(2) rasgueado on 3 and 4, G(5) and a short, choppy strum on (6) and repeat (where G is a golpe). He did this while waiting for the singer to come in again after the guitarist had completed a falseta between sung phrases.

I can't remember the recording, but it was an LP by a well known guitarist playing with a singer. I questioned it with my teacher (Carlos Ramos, a student of Ramon Montoya) and was basically told "Yeah, they sometimes do that in Jerez." Then he told me not to be too obsessive about sticking rigidly to the 12 beat bulerias compas, as long as I stayed with it most of the time. The occasional 6-beat was acceptable, but only occasionally and NEVER anything else (meaning it had to be divisible by 12 or 6, I guess).
Apparently he was not happy with the way guys like Carlos Montoya and Manitas de Plata (who were popular in the US and touring at the time) drifted off compas completely and then started up again wherever they felt like it. Maybe he thought that was sloppy. I certainly do.
Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

Tony A.



Ricardo -> RE: Un, dos, tres - what's the strongest accent in 12-compas? (Apr. 16 2007 18:23:47)

quote:

Don't understand what you are saying there.


Because you pulled that quote out of my paragraph. My point was, you said "there is no such thing as half compas in bulerias". My point was OF COURSE THERE IS if you define ONE SINGLE FULL COMPAS as 12 beats, which MANY PEOPLE DO, including even SOME gitano singers for cryn out loud. A half compas would be a 6 beat phrase that neither repeats nor gets "made up for". As the "half compas" existence is a mathematical certainty. But since there are different ways of DEFINING the length of one compas of bulerias, I would not say your bold statement is false. So just trying to clear that up, OK?

quote:

As for the half compas based on six beats...I would never mention that because that is something Nino Miguel and julano y fulano do in the moment. It is not the norm....whereas 6 beats are very common.


Did you mean "half compas based on THREE beats"/counts/claps etc????? Because that was what I was refering too with my example's of Paco's Tumbona or Nino Miguel. True, not common, and many would consider these things to be "mistakes". Like you said 6 beat phrases are VERY COMMON in bulerias. I don't see anything wrong with calling them when they occur "half compases".

You know, since two halves make a whole and stuff????

For anyone else thinging it is a "thing they do in Jerez" or whatever, no it is VERY common, all players/singers/ styles. As far as DANCERS go, well, most good dancers will make you aware that bulerias should not really be "choreographed", but even if they are, half compas can certainly be part of the choreography.

Ricardo



guitarbuddha -> RE: Un, dos, tres - what's the strongest accent in 12-compas? (Apr. 16 2007 19:56:11)

Isn't it annoying when someone assumes that if what you say doesnt't agree with their particular idea of orthodox thinking that you dont understand ?

Anyway Ricardo you needn't be 'sorry' that nobody you know thinks of 12 as an upbeat. Thinking of it as an upbeat works for me both in listening and in performance. I feel NO confusion and as a result your comment doesn't make me uncomfortable so really no need to apologise.

Mind you people usually start a sentance with 'sorry, but' when they are just about to intentionally patronise you.

Anyway thanks, David.



John O. -> RE: Un, dos, tres - what's the strongest accent in 12-compas? (Apr. 16 2007 22:23:05)

I think this post leaves way too much to personal interpretation. Which palo, which part of the palo, playing solo, accompanying, how the guitarist counts, how the dancers count, peak or valley of a piece... just gets people arguing.

I think it's 12. No doubt. [:)]



Ricardo -> RE: Un, dos, tres - what's the strongest accent in 12-compas? (Apr. 17 2007 14:00:15)

quote:

Isn't it annoying when someone assumes that if what you say doesnt't agree with their particular idea of orthodox thinking that you dont understand ?


Yes.



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