Lester DeVoe Waiting List Spot (Full Version)

Foro Flamenco: http://www.foroflamenco.com/
- Useful Stuff: http://www.foroflamenco.com/default.asp?catApp=3
- - Classifieds: http://www.foroflamenco.com/in_forum.asp?forumid=24
- - - Lester DeVoe Waiting List Spot: http://www.foroflamenco.com/fb.asp?m=57955



Message

DavidT -> Lester DeVoe Waiting List Spot (Feb. 24 2007 18:55:00)

Hi forummers,

I've been in the DeVoe's waiting list for a while. However I purchased a nice blanca recently. I can't afford another guitar.
If you're interested in taking over the spot, please e-mail me.

Dave



Zorro02 -> RE: Lester DeVoe Waiting List Spot (Feb. 24 2007 19:40:15)

Hi Rasgueo,

A true flamenco guitar should be handmade in Spain!!
I am sure the Lester DeVoe's models are excellent value for money however, 30 years experience is really nothing compared to a Ramirez, Conde, Gerrundino and others. Am I being pretentious????
I asked a local luthier to make a "fine" flamenco guitar for me. He assured me a similar, if not better construction, with 1a materials and for a fraction of the cost. Obviously he would be proud of HIS guitar and would want his name on the label (and if I where him, I would want exactly the same) He showed me the plans..They looked fantastic, but the name on the label and the headstock did not. John Smith (not his real name) constructor of guitars.
I know, I know!! many luthiers out there will be busting a blood vessel, but tradition is tradition and Spain is the home of the flamenco guitar.



koella -> RE: Lester DeVoe Waiting List Spot (Feb. 24 2007 19:51:38)

You really think so ?I don't [8|]
let me guess: You think the same about non spanish flamenco guitarplayers ?[>:]



DavidT -> RE: Lester DeVoe Waiting List Spot (Feb. 24 2007 20:21:41)

Zorro02,

There're many outstanding American flamenco luthiers out there. You probably ran into a not-so-good one. You can't generalize things based on one exception.

There're many good and not-so-good luthiers in Spain too. In general that how the world is.

Dave



legrec -> RE: Lester DeVoe Waiting List Spot (Feb. 24 2007 22:19:37)

Hola !
quote:

however, 30 years experience is really nothing compared to a Ramirez, Conde, Gerrundino and others.


I will reverse your point of view : Lots of spanish builders are resting on their "laurels" because of these "several decades" of fame, and the one you mentioned have turned since a long time IMO in a big business relation with guitar making, with all the troubles and deception it involves for customers...

It's like french wine. I'm french and can clearly see that in the times when nobody knew how to make red wine, we made tons and tons of unbrewable vinegar with a good looking sticker, exported it broadly at unfair prices (read the Conde prices) and laughed on top of our hill&castle.
Keeping the good bottles for us and thinking we were eternal kings in this field (and so, stopped to really like, cherrish, innovate, respect wine and wine drinkers).

Now, it's VERY hard for us. Singing: "The harder they comes, the harder they fall, na na na".
In the "modern" wines contests, we're beaten by Californian, South-American, Australian, etc wines.
For sure we still have some bottles of "Château Palmer" or "Romane-Conti" remaining (read "Château Reyes" and "Gerundino-Gonzalez").
At an unbelievable cost and soon not available anymore.

For sure, the inertia of customer's buying behaviors prevent us to fall definitively. The fame still compensate the lack of price-quality-honesty relation. But not for long if we don't react.
...same thing for spanish guitars, on the whole...

The "extranjeros" have to make a reputation, so they work really hard. And most importantly, with a "discovering" spirit. Like in the good ol' days in Spain.

IMO With some notable exceptions, there are better deals (quality-price-relation with maker) outside of spain than inside nowadays if you're not spaniard yourself.
And I can say my Devoe clearly "mata" (kills) all the spanish guitars I've tried during my quest... And my second best is from a French builder...[:D]
And I've got nothing about spanish builders, I began my quest there, like most of us.



Guest -> [Deleted] (Feb. 24 2007 22:32:08)

[Deleted by Admins]



TANúñez -> RE: Lester DeVoe Waiting List Spot (Feb. 24 2007 22:33:12)

quote:

A true flamenco guitar should be handmade in Spain!!


Zorro02. You may be right. I'm sure Paco de Lucia, Vincete Amigo, Sabicas, El Viejin and a few others feel the same way and would not dare touch a flamenco guitar made by an American of all people. I'm sure they would rather buy from luthiers who make very little guitars per year like Ramirez and Conde. How dare these American luthiers even try to make a flamenco guitar. The guitar was born in Spain. [8|]



Thomas Whiteley -> RE: Lester DeVoe Waiting List Spot (Feb. 25 2007 2:27:58)

quote:

You may be right. I'm sure Paco de Lucia, Vincete Amigo, Sabicas, El Viejin and a few others feel the same way and would not dare touch a flamenco guitar made by an American of all people.


I have played many guitars during the last 54 years and I must say that the Lester Devoe guitar made for Sabicas is one of the finest I have played!

Perhaps Lester is really Spanish? Then it would be ok for him to build guitars! [:D]



Thomas Whiteley -> RE: Lester DeVoe Waiting List Spot (Feb. 25 2007 2:51:31)

quote:

I am sure the Lester DeVoe's models are excellent value for money however, 30 years experience is really nothing compared to a Ramirez, Conde, Gerrundino and others. Am I being pretentious????



Pretentious? Perish the thought. Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

By the way, how many luthiers put their label on a guitar made by a worker in their shop? How many of those workers have thirty years experience building guitars? Is Lester Devoe recognized for the quality of his work?

One joke (actually true) is a statement, “Of the 400 guitars built by Santos, 1000 still exist”! You have to watch labels and even luthiers that are recognized as having built world class instruments. Some of their work has produced examples that leave much to desired.



Patrick -> RE: Lester DeVoe Waiting List Spot (Feb. 25 2007 5:54:33)

And I guess we have to exclude Classical builders. After all the Classical guitar has to be from Spain as well. Robert Ruck with his ten-year list (oh I'm sorry, you can't get on his list anymore) and the fifteen thousand dollar price tag. Oh...I did say "dollars" didn’t I? Yes he is from the US.

How dare him think he can remotely be compared to good old Jose.



Patrick -> RE: Lester DeVoe Waiting List Spot (Feb. 25 2007 6:05:38)

quote:

Let's see......who plays his guitars.......
Paco De Lucia, Vicente Amigo, Viejin and others.


But those are special "DeVoe's" you and I can't get one of those. [8D] We all know Lester sends them the best...that's what one of our forum members heard from the uncle...of a friend....of his sisters.... boy friends.... brother. My two DeVoe's I am sure are his inferior ones.



Rain -> RE: Lester DeVoe Waiting List Spot (Feb. 25 2007 16:39:32)

I played many Devoes and paid alot of money in shipping charges, and I have yet to play a Devoe that I deem a good guitar. However, I am dieing to hear one that lives up to the reputation Devoe is known for. He is not a consistant builder.
I have an Aaron Green Blanca due next month, my decision to purchase the Green came about after I compared it to a Devoe(A friend of my owns both guitars) And The Green kicked the Devoes ass. It was louder, projected better, and over all sounded 10 times better. Now to be fair, I'm sure there are alot of great Devoes out there, I just have not played one yet. And My Aaron Green might just be a worthless guitar when it arrives, I'll definately let you all know, and give you my verdict when it arrives.

Thank all the middle men out there (Like Guitar salon) for making guitars as expensive as they are. If I cannot by the guitar directly or if a guitar maker wants me to go thru a middleman, then I take my business elsewhere.

I'm a one guitar person, I play one classical guitar( I do own 2 one is my first that i purchased in 1987, I use that for flamenco practice) and If the Green Blanca is what I expect it to be, it will be the Flamenco guitar that I will most likely play for the rest of my life. That is of course I find one that is much better.

So guys pray with me that my Aaron Green is a monster.



Thomas Whiteley -> RE: Lester DeVoe Waiting List Spot (Feb. 25 2007 16:41:39)

quote:

And I guess we have to exclude Classical builders. After all the Classical guitar has to be from Spain as well.


Then we have some German named Hermann Hauser, who made guitars. Segovia thought they were good but then what would Segovia know? Hermann Hauser’s son and grandson also make guitars. Perhaps someone should tell them they produce inferior instruments?



Patrick -> RE: Lester DeVoe Waiting List Spot (Feb. 25 2007 17:50:21)

quote:

I played many Devoes and paid alot of money in shipping charges, and I have yet to play a Devoe that I deem a good guitar. However, I am dieing to hear one that lives up to the reputation Devoe is known for. He is not a consistant builder


Gurkan,

Man I have heard you say this many times before and I just don't get where you are coming form. Don't get me wrong, I respect your opinion, but I just don't see it your way. Personally, I believe DeVoe is one of the most consistent builders around. I too have played several DeVoe's.

I currently own two DeVoe negra's and have played at length the sister guitar to one of mine that was built in the same group. All I can say is, they “all” have had the same overall “DeVoe sound”. One may be a bit brighter in the mids…one in the trebles…on and on. But I can assure you; all of the DeVoe’s I have played were incredibly consistent. I was doing a test with two DeVoe’s a few months ago and constantly had to look at each guitar to see which one I was playing.

As to you saying you haven’t played one you like, well again man that’s just your personal opinion, which I respect. Maybe you just don’t like what I call the “DeVoe” sound. That doesn’t make a DeVoe bad; it just may not fit “your” mold of what a good flamenco should sound like. Every DeVoe I have played tended to be more to the “contemporary” sound you hear a lot today.

You and I have discussed Green’s guitars. In fact I think I was a bit responsible for your decision to go with a Green (don’t get mad at me if you don’t like it). My Green (blanca) is a whole bunch different from my DeVoe’s. My Green blanca is very old school. One thing I will say is it took about a year to really come into its own. I am hearing wonderful things about his negra’s as well and have one due sometime this year.



Patrick -> RE: Lester DeVoe Waiting List Spot (Feb. 25 2007 17:58:45)

quote:

Then we have some German named Hermann Hauser, who made guitars. Segovia thought they were good but then what would Segovia know? Hermann Hauser’s son and grandson also make guitars. Perhaps someone should tell them they produce inferior instruments?


Didn't Julian Breem play a Hauser as well? Maybe I'm wrong, but I am sure he played one of those inferior non-Spanish rejects.

By the way, Anders and Stephen (Hill) guitars are fine. They aren’t Spanish, but live in Spain so that makes them exempt. [:D]

Here is something to think about. If you are a well-known builder from Spain and you move out of the country, do your guitars now become inferior to ones built in Spain?



Zorro02 -> RE: Lester DeVoe Waiting List Spot (Feb. 25 2007 18:24:39)

quote:

Here is something to think about. If you are a well-known builder from Spain and you move out of the country, do your guitars now become inferior to ones built in Spain?


Hi Patrick

If a writer were to move to another country, would his books become any less appealing to his followers??? OF COURSE NOT!!
His skills and knowledge would go with him. He could obtain the same materials and they would be delivered to him in his adopted country.
When a great luthier dies, he takes with him his skills, (unless he has a son, not a daughter!!!!) to the grave with him. The son must possess the passion his Father has for maintaining and enhancing the development of the family tradition.
Oh and just out of interest, are there any decent women Luthiers?



Rain -> RE: Lester DeVoe Waiting List Spot (Feb. 25 2007 18:34:48)

Patrick, I was not slamming Devoe just for the sake of it, like I said I have yet to play one that I like. I'm sorry but the Devoes I played were not very good, that is my opinion. Are your Devoes loud? Do they project? they probably do, that was not the case with the ones I played. I would love to play your guitars and see where it is your coming from, but thats not probable.
As far as the the Green goes, if it's ****, I will let him know and everyone on this board as well.
Look Tone is subjective, so you may be right, perhaps Devoe's are not the sound I'm looking for.

Yes, Julian Bream and segovia both played Hausers.



Rain -> RE: Lester DeVoe Waiting List Spot (Feb. 25 2007 18:40:13)

Zorro02, you are not making any sense my brother. But you are failing miserably. The top selling classical guitars today are made by non-spaniards. The majority of the greatest classical gutarist are not spanish.
Think about that.



Patrick -> RE: Lester DeVoe Waiting List Spot (Feb. 25 2007 18:56:10)

quote:

Are your Devoes loud? Do they project? they probably do, that was not the case with the ones I played.


Well let me give you a bit of an overview based on the ones I own and have played. All of them have had more than enough projection and volume. Now it's tough to compare, but my Green is very, very loud. I would easily put one of my DeVoe's at the level of the Green (volume) whereas the other DeVoe, just under the Green. But keep in mind my Green is a blanca...the DeVoe's negra's.

What's interesting is a year or so ago, someone had posted on Foro that he hadn't played a Green he liked! He said none of them had any projection or bight! He didn't like the tone and were just mediocre guitars. In the end, it's all personal.



TANúñez -> RE: Lester DeVoe Waiting List Spot (Feb. 25 2007 18:56:45)

quote:

When a great luthier dies, he takes with him his skills, (unless he has a son, not a daughter!!!!)


Zorro what are you talking about??? are you saying a woman cannot build a great guitar? I guess you've never played one by Ana Espinoza. The wife of Rene Baarslag.

There arent' many women building guitars but I know there are some that can. If Santos Hernandez had a daughter that could build, why wouldn't she be able to do what her Father did? Especially if her Father taught her the skill?



Patrick -> RE: Lester DeVoe Waiting List Spot (Feb. 25 2007 19:11:11)

quote:

A true flamenco guitar should be handmade in Spain!!


But my friend, you said it had to be "built" in Spain. So if the builder leaves Spain, something must be lost. Is that what I am hearing you say?



Zorro02 -> RE: Lester DeVoe Waiting List Spot (Feb. 25 2007 19:16:45)

Hi Rain,

I am failing miserably???
I did not mention classical guitars, I was speaking about Flamenco!!
[8|] Please read threads and do not make assumptions.



duende -> RE: Lester DeVoe Waiting List Spot (Feb. 25 2007 19:17:01)

quote:

30 years experience is really nothing compared to a Ramirez, Conde, Gerrundino and others.


Funny how all the condes i find sound like **** and their playability is realy crap


quote:

a real flamenco guitar should be buildt in spain


what if you have a real flamenco guitar made in spain but the luhier is danish?[:D]



koella -> RE: Lester DeVoe Waiting List Spot (Feb. 25 2007 19:33:16)

So Patrick and Zorro.
Let´s upload something and cut the talking which is going nowhere IMO.[:D]



Rain -> RE: Lester DeVoe Waiting List Spot (Feb. 25 2007 19:53:14)

Zorro, if I had this many replies contradicting one of my post my friend, I would sit down and truly reconsider my point of view, and perhaps learn something. Maybe even learn that I was wrong.



Patrick -> RE: Lester DeVoe Waiting List Spot (Feb. 25 2007 20:03:54)

quote:

So Patrick and Zorro.
Let´s upload something and cut the talking which is going nowhere IMO.


I have done so many times in the past, but what does that have to do with the subject at hand? My ability to play (or lack thereof) is irrelevant to the subject.



koella -> RE: Lester DeVoe Waiting List Spot (Feb. 25 2007 20:24:56)

Sorry, I didn't mean to say it was relevant to the subject.
I meant to say the subject itself isn't relevant IMO.

So quit talking and do another upload. I can't find the old ones.
Though I found some uploadsof members far before my time. Which made me very humble hearing them.[&o]



Ron.M -> RE: Lester DeVoe Waiting List Spot (Feb. 25 2007 20:51:18)

I think the thing that the comments on this thread mostly highlight is the difference between art, science and engineering.
Art has an undefinable "feel" or "sense" to it and really has a logic of it's own, often to the individual.
So that a guitar built in San Francisco by a Spanish-born luthier does not weigh in so much as a guitar built under the Andalucian sun by a Spanish builder.
Or that a guitar built under the Andalucian sun by a Danish-born luthier is somehow not the same as if he was born in Granada.

Total rubbish IMO.

Now getting down to the nitty-gritty...
Is a good gringo guitarist the same as a good Andalucian guitarist?
Depends what you mean by "good" I suppose.,,
I've been listening to Flamenco for quite a while now and I am still taken aback at how some Andalucian guitarists will interpret quite a simple phrase.
Not something that would have come to my mind naturally I must admit.
So in that way, I feel I've missed out on that "gut-feeling" and "instictive" way of playing that comes with someone who has grown up and learned with the culture, regardless of the amount of Flamenco I've listened to.

Is it possible at all?
Well, obviously it is when hearing non-Spanish guitarists like, say, Amir Haddad, who was born and brought up in Germany, but moved to Jerez at an early age.

Depends how much you want to get into it, I suppose.

That's my view anyway...


cheers

Ron



Guest -> [Deleted] (Feb. 25 2007 21:21:15)

[Deleted by Admins]



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Lester DeVoe Waiting List Spot (Feb. 26 2007 7:27:10)

quote:

I think playing the guitar and building are two different things.


I dont agree..... I cannot imagine myself being able to build good instruments without being able to play them. I play 1 - 2 hours a day because I like it and because its part of my work.. building guitars.
The little details, like pulsation, balance, attack at lower frets and upper frets etc. are so important and I prefere to be able to judge these things myself instead of leaving it to someone else to tell me. I think it must be a poor feeling to build an instrument and not being able to test it, and I say really test it by playing it well, not being able to play a few chords and stum a bit. A flamenco guitar needs to be tested with the thumb digging hard near the bridge....[;)]

As to the discussion....... PLEASE remember always, that there´s something called taste and that it influences in the judgement, especially when the judge is not a very good player understanding the complexity of the art and the tool (guitar)
As if guitars should come from Spain. I live here and I totally disagree. If you got the capacity, the time and you work hard you can build great instruments everywhere. The only little advantage we have here in Spain is reference, that we have more players to test our guitars and more guitars to compare with... But things are changing, nowadays we have Conde Hermanos factory guitars all over the planet... You may like them or not, but ARE a good reference point. Sometimes a VERY good one.



Page: [1] 2    >   >>

Valid CSS!




Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET