RE: Music Theory: Why? (Full Version)

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ToddK -> RE: Music Theory: Why? (Feb. 4 2015 3:53:43)

Music theory.... Why?

Wow, great question! I have no f'ing idea..



[8D]



Pgh_flamenco -> RE: Music Theory: Why? (Feb. 4 2015 10:25:22)

quote:

You need to know theory in order to get the results that your understanding of theory will give you.

You don't need to know theory to get the results from not knowing theory.

By not knowing theory, you'll certainly fail miserably at attempting to produce musical parts based on the exploration of theory.

If you really understand theory, there's no reason for it to be an obstacle to your guitar/flamenco playing.


How does this--or any of your other posts that followed it--answer the original questions? Talk about twisting things around for your own purposes.



Pgh_flamenco -> RE: Music Theory: Why? (Feb. 4 2015 10:33:39)

quote:

Given the true question on this thread, I feel that in order to clarify the matter at hand we should see beyond any particular genre.


So YOU think the original poster didn't know what he wanted to ask! The "true question" as opposed to what--the op's questions? Interesting...



Pgh_flamenco -> RE: Music Theory: Why? (Feb. 4 2015 10:38:34)

quote:

I don't think we need more concepts, what we need is to be a bit more pragmatic and stop trying to analyse one genre based on the premises of another genre.


My point exactly, although I disagree with the second part of your statement.



Pgh_flamenco -> RE: Music Theory: Why? (Feb. 4 2015 10:46:40)

quote:

All theories are right for me and I believe people hear things differently so.. there are many variables.

The only need for unified theory would be at institutions or to communicate with other musicians... and again, if you know how theory works you'll understand other points of view pretty quick.


Here you are answering your own questions yet again. It is obvious you don't think the op knew what he wanted to ask.



Pgh_flamenco -> RE: Music Theory: Why? (Feb. 4 2015 10:54:49)

quote:

The only need for unified theory would be at institutions or to communicate with other musicians...


Was the op interested in a unified theory? Do you remember the op mentioning "no talent" in question two and "the masters" as well as "pure talent" in question three? Care to address this aspect of the posted questions. It seems like I'm the only one to address this concern. Why don't you comment on this as well...



estebanana -> RE: Music Theory: Why? (Feb. 4 2015 12:42:15)

Analysis Paralysis.



estebanana -> RE: Music Theory: Why? (Feb. 4 2015 13:16:45)

Theorize this:

No more bitching about your right hands or scale length or arpeggios.....



Or just grow bigger balls like this guy.



Pgh_flamenco -> RE: Music Theory: Why? (Feb. 4 2015 13:32:39)

quote:


No more bitching about your right hands or scale length or arpeggios.....



Or just grow bigger balls like this guy.


Now what will people who have poor technique think? If they think they weren't holding the guitar correctly this might be the way to go--lol! Yep, that’s the secret they needed to know to progress since there’s no such thing as talent.

Where there's a will there's a way. Gifted players like this never cease to amaze me.



Sr. Martins -> RE: Music Theory: Why? (Feb. 4 2015 13:36:21)

Strawman!

PG, in my opinion, you just went full retard.



estebanana -> RE: Music Theory: Why? (Feb. 4 2015 13:46:19)

I never go full retard. Tom Hanks went full retard. Simple Jeff went full retard. I know the movie reference.

Strawman my ass, he's a good player.



marduk -> RE: Music Theory: Why? (Feb. 4 2015 13:51:34)

the yana mulyana video reminds me of this



estebanana -> RE: Music Theory: Why? (Feb. 4 2015 13:56:19)

Ok Marduk I got another one for you!

Straw Obachan, just try to knock her down!




Ok back to your regularly scheduled theory class....



marduk -> RE: Music Theory: Why? (Feb. 4 2015 13:59:52)

doesn't count because PRS guitars play themselves.. pretty badass though



sig -> RE: Music Theory: Why? (Feb. 4 2015 14:24:18)

quote:

Theorize this:

No more bitching about your right hands or scale length or arpeggios.....


And he's a lefty to boot!!



Pgh_flamenco -> RE: Music Theory: Why? (Feb. 4 2015 14:34:10)

quote:

PG, in my opinion, you just went full retard.


It seems obvious to me that the op was interested in knowing how much a person might benefit from knowing music theory. His questions were related to his aspirations to become “’an all-round good musician’ or ‘good guitarist’ or ‘good improviser’” as well as a “good flamenco” composer. He also set up a continuum from “no talent” to mastering the instrument by what might be “pure talent” as way of understanding what outcome was possible by studying music theory.

Sr. Martin, you provided numerous statements that suited your personal interests without directly addressing the op’s questions. Also, it should be obvious to you by now that you never understood the questions, but only used them as a starting point to share your personal opinions. THE AD HOMINEM STATEMENT YOU MADE REFLECTS POORLY ON YOU—it’s unfortunate that you did not realize that before posting it. I was taught not to take people with degrees in music very seriously and it’s mostly because they intentionally obscure the important issues that might be useful for anyone interested in learning how to play an instrument well.



Sr. Martins -> RE: Music Theory: Why? (Feb. 4 2015 14:50:42)

If your ignorance feels threatened, go learn something. Leaving poops all over a topic that has no value to you won't do nothing for your inferiority complex.



Pgh_flamenco -> RE: Music Theory: Why? (Feb. 4 2015 15:02:32)

quote:

If your ignorance feels threatened, go learn something. Leaving poops all over a topic that has no value to you won't do nothing for your inferiority complex.


I never said that music theory has no value to me. If that is your understanding of my posts than very little can be done to help you understand this--or any other--subject. I was able to improvise solos against a ii/V/I progression decades ago so I'm in no way against music theory. You are the one making personal attacks and scatological remarks and you've done this in many other threads as well. It's best to not take yourself and your opinions too seriously, but if you do at least make an effort to understand what other people have said...



Sr. Martins -> RE: Music Theory: Why? (Feb. 4 2015 15:11:11)

Dude, all the crap you've been writing happens to be the result of you not understanding things.

From now on I'll ignore all this paralell crap, don't feel offended if I ignore your contributions to theory threads in general.



Pgh_flamenco -> RE: Music Theory: Why? (Feb. 4 2015 15:25:57)

quote:

Dude, all the crap you've been writing happens to be the result of you not understanding things.

From now on I'll ignore all this paralell crap, don't feel offended if I ignore your contributions to theory threads in general.


If you are not capable of responding in a substantive way than please do so.



Paul Magnussen -> RE: Music Theory: Why? (Feb. 4 2015 16:26:41)

quote:

And finally the Almonaster version....


Is that the one (or one of the ones) where it modulates to A major?



Kevin -> RE: Music Theory: Why? (Feb. 4 2015 16:54:43)

Paul: It is actually Fandangos de Santa Eulalia that go to A. I always confuse the two. The A in Almonaster acts as a mnemonic for A major, lol.



Kevin -> RE: Music Theory: Why? (Feb. 4 2015 17:59:41)

Ramzi: I am sorry the thread has come to this. I truly believe that all people theorize, we all engage in the same processes that lead to theory, and therefore to theory itself. Western Music theorists are not special in their ability; they are only special in their devotion and dedication to articulating that theory in writing.

The problem with this thread, something that I am trying to remedy in other posts and threads, is that the conversation is between relatively few people. Instead of working together to provide some insight for beginner-players (generally, but also those new to theory), everyone continues to speak in the abstract. I believe GB, Sr Martins, Pgh, Ricardo, and many others have some cool insights but they are not coming out in practical examples.

Some philosophical traditions "yoke" their theories to practice. In India during the time of the Buddhist Nagarjuna, the stakes were high. You had to prove that your philosophies were practical. If you won a debate, the losers - teacher and students - were expected to convert.

At any rate. My goal has always been to help beginners interested primarily in playing, but also in a general understanding of how things are put together in flamenco. So I will be on another thread doing that. I don't have anything against people like Todd, Stephen, or Bill, but over the years I have felt attacked, offended and insulted. I'm tired of that negativity so they are invited to stay away from any other threads I post, or at the very least, contribute some real musical examples.



Sr. Martins -> RE: Music Theory: Why? (Feb. 4 2015 18:16:43)

quote:

I believe GB, Sr Martins, Pgh, Ricardo, and many others have some cool insights but they are not coming out in practical examples.

Some philosophical traditions "yoke" their theories to practice. In India during the time of the Buddhist Nagarjuna, the stakes were high. You had to prove that your philosophies were practical. If you won a debate, the losers - teacher and students - were expected to convert.


Maybe you are overlooking the fact that the "conversion" goes only so far. You might try to show others something but you have no obligation to baby sit and feed them with a spoon. Ultimately you debate these things because you enjoy them, take that away and all you're doing is trying to prove yourself to hecklers.



Morante -> RE: Music Theory: Why? (Feb. 4 2015 18:45:40)

quote:

It is actually Fandangos de Santa Eulalia that go to A


This has always been my favourite fandango. Now it reminds me of a long night of juerga with José Millán, when we ended up in a bar at 5 am, with doors closed and 3 or 4 aficionados. Eventually José decided to sing fandangos. I know than Alosno is usually accompanied in A, but in Cádiz all are accompanied in E, to which I am acustomed. However José started in A. All went well for 20 minutes until he sang por Santa Eulalia. Since we were all rather less than sober, my befuddled mind could not think of the next chord. So I stopped playing. José stopped singing. I looked at him and said "José, I think it´s time to go home" He, even drunker than me, agreed.

Así se aprende[:)]



guitarbuddha -> RE: Music Theory: Why? (Feb. 4 2015 19:02:48)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Morante

..... in A, but in Cádiz all are accompanied in E, to which I am acustomed.

However José started in A. All went well for 20 minutes until he sang por Santa Eulalia. Since we were all rather less than sober, my befuddled mind could not think of the next chord. So I stopped playing. José stopped singing. I looked at him and said "José, I think it´s time to go home" He, even drunker than me, agreed.

Así se aprende[:)]


Yeah, I think I get it, yeah !!!!!!! of course.........go home and practice transpostition for next time.

That's what this thread is all about.


Or maybe I am still not getting the point.[:D]

D.[:)]



SephardRick -> RE: Music Theory: Why? (Feb. 4 2015 19:22:37)

Stephen,

That fine video of the lady blues player enlightened me:

Some music is better left in theory...

"...I'm going to take a shotgun and connect it to my brain..."



Now, back to our Thread.



Morante -> RE: Music Theory: Why? (Feb. 4 2015 19:48:31)

quote:

Or maybe I am still not getting the point.


I think you are[:D] In the real world of flamenco, instant transposition and tone recognition, even when catatonic, are essential!



Sr. Martins -> RE: Music Theory: Why? (Feb. 4 2015 19:58:14)

quote:

I think you are In the real world of flamenco, instant transposition and tone recognition, even when catatonic, are essential!


Flamenco has it easier than other genres/instruments because of the general use of a capo.

I find that people who never used a capo adapt easily to it while people who are used to transpose only with a capo get totally lost without it. The thought process is very different.



estebanana -> RE: Music Theory: Why? (Feb. 5 2015 0:04:57)

quote:

At any rate. My goal has always been to help beginners interested primarily in playing, but also in a general understanding of how things are put together in flamenco. So I will be on another thread doing that. I don't have anything against people like Todd, Stephen, or Bill, but over the years I have felt attacked, offended and insulted. I'm tired of that negativity so they are invited to stay away from any other threads I post, or at the very least, contribute some real musical examples.


I don't think anyone is persecuting you over music theory. And if I feel like posting on your threads I will. You're adopting the "I'm taking my ball home" attitude here.

Here is how people are as a professor of sculpture I had told me 20 years ago. I was saying how people did not like what I was offering or talking about. She said this:

"Stephen people are like iguanas, like lizards really. If you put the wrong kind of lettuce food in front of them they will just slink away and not be interested in eating it. "

There's nothing wrong with me, Todd or Bill. Mostly we have strong opinions, but we do listen to others. The problem is that you need to think of us as iguanas. If you want us to like your lettuce, grow a different kind. If you don't care if we like your lettuce it might even be better for you.

Personally I prefer a good rocket salad.



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