RE: Music Theory: Why? (Full Version)

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Pgh_flamenco -> RE: Music Theory: Why? (Jan. 30 2015 0:03:21)

quote:

Much earlier in this thread, jmb referred to Benoit Mandelstam and the powerful insights that Mandelstam's elucidation of fractals has brought to the attention of the greater world. This thread perfectly illustrates the fractal proposition that the deeper and more minutely one probes into an initially vaguely and poorly articulated thesis, the more one encounters the same thing repeated over and over again. I like this gem-- Question: What does the B. in Benoit B. Mandelstam stand for? Answer: Benoit B. Mandelstam.


There is too much empty theorizing in this thread and the above quote is perhaps the best example. From a practical perspective a person who can figure out how to tune the instrument on his own as well as play any chord form, melody line or song by ear and without any instruction will not have as much need for theory as the vast majority of people who cannot. Fortunately a system--music theory--has been created that the latter can use to develop their ability as musicians.

Consider another practical perspective on the issue of music theory:

1) A person knows music theory if he can write a term paper on the subject and receive a passing grade.
2) A person knows music theory if he can apply the rules of harmony and melody in an improvisational setting.

Both are acceptable scenarios but it is doubtful an audience would enjoy hearing the paper read aloud as much as the musician's performance.




Pgh_flamenco -> RE: Music Theory: Why? (Jan. 30 2015 0:08:38)

quote:

I remember there was a guy on the foro whose name I won't mention. Nice guy and kind of a theory buff. But all he knew he kind of half knew or had gotten it wrong. We used to argue a lot then he went off and failed a theory exam. He wasn't dumb or anything but he had read too far ahead of his ears.


I remember this, too. He had his user account deleted around that time as well as all of his posts IIRC...




Kevin -> RE: Music Theory: Why? (Jan. 30 2015 0:38:07)

quote:

I remember this, too. He had his user account deleted around that time as well as all of his posts IIRC...


Sounds like me. I had my account deleted for other personal reasons. Fortunately I didn't fail any theory exams. In fact, kept a near 4.0 throughout passing some advanced jazz theory (no I am not a jazz guitarist-I'd need another lifetime).

Many of the pdfs and other material were linked to. They were no longer available. Plus, I just got pissed off that so many people argue and don't post transcriptions, videos, etc to form an actual community. I haven't been here in probably two years. The last thing I did before I left was transcribe John Walsh's solea. Now I am beginning to remember why I left. Uuugh. I find JG's and John Walsh's posts infinitely more inspiring and useful than many others.

Anyway...

[8|]




rombsix -> RE: Music Theory: Why? (Jan. 30 2015 1:52:38)

quote:

How much longer do you have in school?


About 1.5 years...




ToddK -> RE: Music Theory: Why? (Jan. 30 2015 3:35:32)

If you listen and learn enough Bulerias, you will eventually start
spinning out variations which eventually turn into your own ideas.

We were beating on drums and singing/playing music LONG before
any "Theory" or "system" came along.
Theory came later as a way to organize and explain what was happening
already.

"Music theory" doesnt provide actual music or musical ideas.
It is simply the alphabet to the language of music.
It is not music itself.

Knowing music theory will not make you PDL anymore than knowing english
will make me Edgar Allan Poe.

You either have a story to tell, or you dont. The whole things is ultra simple.

But i think its more fun for people to quote Zbikowski, and Thomas Ward
and win the "i'm smarter than everybody" award. Thats my theory..


[:)]




chester -> RE: Music Theory: Why? (Jan. 30 2015 4:36:40)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ToddK
Knowing music theory will not make you PDL anymore than knowing english
will make me Edgar Allan Poe.

Nice analogy.

You don't need to be able to define 'syncopation' in order to tap something funky.
But on the other hand, it helps to know why it sounds funky so you can tap other beats that are consistently funky.

The names of things are less meaningful than the concepts they represent. Theory is the concept behind what's happening. It is important to be mindful of what you're playing so you'll eventually know how to achieve the sound you want without just getting lucky.

Or you can just keep playing the same things over and over and never understand why something sounds a certain way.

We all 'know' music theory. If you know that Am sounds good after E7 you're using 'music theory'.




Kevin -> RE: Music Theory: Why? (Jan. 30 2015 5:11:23)

.
quote:

But i think its more fun for people to quote Zbikowski, and Thomas
Ward
and win the "i'm smarter than everybody" award. Thats my
theory.

So sad that's what you got from all of that. I am not "smarter" than anyone on here. Never claimed to be. In fact, the more you know, the more you realize you don't know. Hmmm. I just came on here to do what I always intended which is to share some of the knowledge that some great guitarists have passed to me. In fact, I shared some transcriptions of falsetas, cords, and scales. My intentions were good... so....




chester -> RE: Music Theory: Why? (Jan. 30 2015 5:26:33)

quote:

My intentions were good...

Hey man, don't let a couple of jackasses rile you up. I, for one, did not think you're trying to seem smart. You just like to geek out on music theory - that's cool in my book.

You guys need to leave whatever baggage you have behind. We're just a bunch of strangers trying to talk about flamenco here. There are no lives on the line, no need to put down other people.

Maybe guitarbuddha can post a Cipres tutorial? I can get the notes, but the groove is so far away from me... [:(]




Pgh_flamenco -> RE: Music Theory: Why? (Jan. 30 2015 10:01:53)

quote:

Sounds like me. I had my account deleted for other personal reasons.


You needed the ideas you developed in your posts on this forum for your doctoral dissertation. I remember your username and the image you used as well...

I was referring especially to meta-comments posted on how brain studies support the fact that we all use theories, etc. Useless if you ask me. Music theory is not that complicated and is an abstraction of rules based on existing music. I'm assuming that people want to play the guitar well and be able to express themselves as well as possible hence the concrete examples in my posts.

BTW: Did anyone else notice that this thread is almost eight years old?




Pgh_flamenco -> RE: Music Theory: Why? (Jan. 30 2015 10:06:19)

quote:

You guys need to leave whatever baggage you have behind. We're just a bunch of strangers trying to talk about flamenco here. There are no lives on the line, no need to put down other people.


So true and to say that some people on this forum are too sensitive would be quite an understatement.




Pgh_flamenco -> RE: Music Theory: Why? (Jan. 30 2015 10:13:25)

quote:

So sad that's what you got from all of that. I am not "smarter" than anyone on here. Never claimed to be.


Did you come across the term "solipsism" during your graduate studies? If not look it up.




guitarbuddha -> RE: Music Theory: Why? (Jan. 30 2015 11:44:59)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ToddK



"Music theory" doesnt provide actual music or musical ideas.




..


[:)]


Check out Bill Withers 54-1.11




'"Music theory" doesnt provide actual music or musical ideas.
It is simply the alphabet to the language of music.
It is not music itself.'

Most people writing are using the alphabet. Even performance poets seldom feel the need to diss the alphabet.

Most people reading are using some kind of alphabet.......tab is an alphabet.


'If you listen and learn enough Bulerias, you will eventually start
spinning out variations which eventually turn into your own ideas.'

THAT is a theory, and a good one at that. [:)]

Too much hating on an innocent word.


D.




estebanana -> RE: Music Theory: Why? (Jan. 30 2015 12:55:17)

Theory is for guys to can't cut the mustard. Tonos and compas that's what it is.

Stuff yer fancy pants Neopolitan 6th up yer bum!




guitarbuddha -> RE: Music Theory: Why? (Jan. 30 2015 13:06:37)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Theory is for guys to can't cut the mustard. Tonos and compas that's what it is.

Stuff yer fancy pants Neopolitan 6th up yer bum!


Bach says.....



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px




Sr. Martins -> RE: Music Theory: Why? (Jan. 30 2015 14:38:20)

When I was younger I thought that badmouthing theory was something that teenagers did because that's what their idols also did.

Theory is conceived to bring you awareness to the musical elements, whether as a musician/composer or a listener.


Being against theory is like being against 9,8 m/s^2.



I believe there's also an universal answer to people who "brag" about not knowing theory... after you hear one of their compositions you can almost certainly say "yeah, it shows!". It doesn't really matter if your theory is academic or if you made it up, if music is just a bunch of "things you play", then in your mind there's not much to be aware musically... and the less awareness you have about musical aspects, the less pieces you have at your disposal to make that puzzle.




Pgh_flamenco -> RE: Music Theory: Why? (Jan. 30 2015 14:43:56)

quote:

I believe there's also an universal answer to people who "brag" about not knowing theory...


Do people do this? I've never heard it in person. In the 80's when HM was so popular I used to explain theory to metal guitarists and they were always appreciative.




BarkellWH -> RE: Music Theory: Why? (Jan. 30 2015 14:51:33)

quote:

Theory is for guys to can't cut the mustard. Tonos and compas that's what it is. Stuff yer fancy pants Neopolitan 6th up yer bum!


Stephen, I like the way you and Todd cut directly to the chase when it comes to music, leaving the navel-gazers to engage in their solipsistic (a term used earlier in this thread) attempts at appearing more erudite than their peers. Knowing "theory" is fine, but the idea, especially in flamenco, is to be able to play.

(In the spirit of full disclosure, I know little of music theory, and my playing ability leaves much to be desired.)

Bill




guitarbuddha -> RE: Music Theory: Why? (Jan. 30 2015 15:13:09)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH

quote:

Theory is for guys to can't cut the mustard. Tonos and compas that's what it is. Stuff yer fancy pants Neopolitan 6th up yer bum!


Stephen, I like the way you and Todd cut directly to the chase when it comes to music, leaving the navel-gazers to engage in their solipsistic (a term used earlier in this thread) attempts at appearing more erudite than their peers. Knowing "theory" is fine, but the idea, especially in flamenco, is to be able to play.

(In the spirit of full disclosure, I know little of music theory, and my playing ability leaves much to be desired.)

Bill


http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=271347&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=&tmode=&smode=&s=#271440

By my reckoning Bill that's a nine out of ten, excellent. There have been a few nines, I am sure a ten will be along soon.

I'm still stuck at four for four from the other list. But that list is growing.

D.




SephardRick -> RE: Music Theory: Why? (Jan. 30 2015 16:31:36)

quote:

Todd cut directly to the chase when it comes to music, leaving the navel-gazers to engage in their solipsistic (a term used earlier in this thread) attempts at appearing more erudite than their peers


I couldn't agree with you more. Todd always seems to have clarity of mind about music. He cuts through the B.S., sees the fundamental facts, and lays it out for you. Little wonder why professionals like Mr. Goryachev warm up to him.




guitarbuddha -> RE: Music Theory: Why? (Jan. 30 2015 16:44:19)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SephardRick

Little wonder why professionals like Dr. Goryachev warms up to him.


Grisha finished his doctorate ? That's great.

What was he studying ?

D.




SephardRick -> RE: Music Theory: Why? (Jan. 30 2015 16:48:46)

Pardon my Zen. It was a typo.




guitarbuddha -> RE: Music Theory: Why? (Jan. 30 2015 16:51:17)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SephardRick

Pardon my Zen. It was a typo.


Ah well from what I know of Grisha whatever it is he's is studying he'll stick to it.

D.




Sr. Martins -> RE: Music Theory: Why? (Jan. 30 2015 16:51:27)

quote:

I couldn't agree with you more. Todd always seems to have clarity of mind about music. He cuts through the B.S., sees the fundamental facts, and lays it out for you. Little wonder why professionals like Dr. Goryachev warms up to him.



I see lots of people on the "no theory" side of the fence who claim there's nothing good coming from the theory side.

Never heard anyone who understands theory saying that knowing nothing is the way to go, unless we're talking about the ones who don't really understand the purpose of theory and think of it as a recipe.


If you took some time just reading about music history and how and when the theories are formulated, you would understand that you're coming off as ignorant douches.


You don't need to know physics to walk on earth like anybody else but if you were aware of how it works, maybe you could come up with creative solutions to fly.




SephardRick -> RE: Music Theory: Why? (Jan. 30 2015 16:58:24)

quote:

Ah well from what I know of Grisha whatever it is he's is studying he'll stick to it


So true. His discipline is so inspiring.




SephardRick -> RE: Music Theory: Why? (Jan. 30 2015 17:02:18)

quote:

You don't need to know physics to walk on earth like anybody else but if you were aware of how it works, maybe you could come up with creative solutions to fly


Hey Rui!

Isn't it about time to change your pic again? I'm getting seasick from watching that girl sway back and forth[:'(]

I like your old pic of the guitarist serenading the girl...




guitarbuddha -> RE: Music Theory: Why? (Jan. 30 2015 17:08:49)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sr. Martins



Never heard anyone who understands theory saying that knowing nothing is the way to go, unless we're talking about the ones who don't really understand the purpose of theory and think of it as a recipe.





I'm not on any side here Rui so sorry if I seem to be coming from left field here.

There are loads of folk, and Todd's one of them, who don't care for the word 'theory' yet have tons and tons of it. I mentioned my father earlier as an example.

There are a few different arguments going on here. Some to do with running grudges and some to do with general distaste for one person or anothers style of communication.

Theory in music is exactly like theory in science. You try it out and if it works you keep it, if it doesn't you get rid of it. The lab for us is a guitar and if you are wise your voice. You gotta make sure that you spend a lot of time there verifying everything for yourself.

People who have done lots of that will in the end have got rid of a lot of theories as useless or inappropriate to their needs.

And sometimes because of this they are scathing when talking about 'theory'.

That's fine.

But others can't take a short cut to where they are by merely agreeing with them.

Or can they ?

D.

* (actually that's the evaluation process which excludes a hypothesis from becoming a theory and I just lost another dozen brownie points for pointing it out)




JohnWalshGuitar -> RE: Music Theory: Why? (Jan. 30 2015 17:09:16)

I like 'theory' and am pretty proficient in it. Mostly to be honest I find it useful for communicating with other musicians.
Occasionally it helps me when I am stuck with a particular part in a composition.

But overall, there is no shortcut. Hours and hours, days, weeks, years with your instrument, developing your fingers and your ears is the only way to go if you want to improve as a musician IMHO.
Anyway, these threads get too much attention in my opinion. Sincerely no offense to anyone intended. But I think the foro needs more member uploads. I used to really enjoy coming here to see all the wonderful and varied videos from lots of different members. There seems to be a lot less of that lately.
Anyway, more playing, less talking! [;)]




Kevin -> RE: Music Theory: Why? (Jan. 30 2015 17:10:57)

Simple solution.

If you don't like micro breweries, don't go to them. But don't go to a microbrewery and insult the next table, some of the members of which are discussing the difference between Stouts and IPAs. If someone has developed a taste for stouts through experience and your mad because they order and talk about something other than PBR or Old Milwaukee, that's not ****, that is your own hangup.

If JasonMc or Ricardo were around my town I would humble myself and study with either of them. I also really admire John Walsh's playing. As for guitar, one could do worse than studying with Grisha. He's a monster. It is odd to me that much of the criticism is coming from a luthier, a soloist, and an older gentleman who admittedly knows nothing and has little experience.
My corner of flamenco is humble, VERY HUMBLE. But I am sure that 70 shows a year for 5 years (continued performance over 15), playing for classes three days a week for 5 years, studying with two masters, and doing graduate work, is more flamenco (and academic) experience than Bananaboy, Godd, and Barkelworth have.

Sincere intentions of sharing something is anything but solipsistic and need not be erudite.

I also find it sad that many people have not learned that "we just don't have the emoticons to express" things the ways we sometimes want. Add to that the fact that you never know what is going on in somebody's life and these attacks/criticisms are deplorable.

So sad.




Kevin -> RE: Music Theory: Why? (Jan. 30 2015 17:14:00)

quote:

But overall, there is no shortcut. Hours and hours, days, weeks, years with your instrument, developing your fingers and your ears is the only way to go if you want to improve as a musician IMHO.
Anyway, these threads get too much attention in my opinion. Sincerely no offense to anyone intended. But I think the foro needs more member uploads. I used to really enjoy coming here to see all the wonderful and varied videos from lots of different members. There seems to be a lot less of that lately.
Anyway, more playing, less talking!


Agreed. Theory is not a substitute.




BarkellWH -> RE: Music Theory: Why? (Jan. 30 2015 17:16:23)

quote:

Never heard anyone who understands theory saying that knowing nothing is the way to go


You have created a straw man to knock down. No one that I am aware of has said, "knowing nothing is the way to go": not Todd, not Stephen, nor anyone else who has contributed to this thread. Speaking for myself, I stated, "Knowing 'theory' is fine, but the idea, especially in flamenco, is to be able to play." It is a question of emphasis, especially in flamenco. One can ponder theory all day, or one can practice and attempt to perfect compas, rasgueados, falsetas, and other techniques within the framework of various palos.

Bill




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