String recommendation please (Full Version)

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DavidT -> String recommendation please (Feb. 1 2007 16:46:41)

Hi,

I have a very nice high end blanca. It sounds very blanca. However occasinally I play slow, mellow pieces this blanca lacks the mellow sound I'm looking for (particularly the bass strings). It's the only guitar I have. Buying a Negra is out of my consideration right now.
Is it possible to get more mellow, sustainning sound from this blanca by replacing appropriate strings (i.e. classical strings)? If it is what strings do you recommend?

Thanks
Dave



legrec -> RE: String recommendation please (Feb. 1 2007 21:19:39)

I don't know about what brand of string because I've always used "flamenco" strings, but my advice would be to keep the strings on as long as possible... All my strings turn mellow after several weeks/months...
And also perhaps to have you made a higher saddle by a luthier. At first my Devoe negra had a very high saddle for a flamenca, and it was really "mellow". Of course it's a bit painfull to put on and off the higher saddle...

May I ask what is this "untamed" blanca, which refuse to play "classical" ? I'm interested [;)]



Jim Opfer -> RE: String recommendation please (Feb. 1 2007 22:31:46)

Try Savarez Corum Alliance either high or normal tension and lets hear how you get on.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: String recommendation please (Feb. 2 2007 7:18:34)

Hi Dave

To recommend strings without having tried the guitar is like recommending cigarete brand when you are not smoking.

Besides, strings are very personal and besides sound, playability is personal and depends on your tecnique. The strings Jim recommends you sounds nice and work well with his playing. I also like their sound, but I hate playing them. I just never got to like them. Flimsy and thin and very unpleasant when you "dig in". But thats me.[;)]

Another thing is how you play. A good high end blanca should react a lot to your playing position. When wanting to sound "muy flamenco" you should play with a very flat attack close to the bridge, and when wanting to sound lyrical, you should be playing a bit closer to the soundhole with a rounder attack.

Very often its not the guitar, but the player.

I hope this helps.
Anders

BTW. I prefer "neutral" strings like Daddario J45 or Luthier 20 and I like carbon 3rd strings



Jim Opfer -> RE: String recommendation please (Feb. 2 2007 12:08:07)

quote:

To recommend strings without having tried the guitar is like recommending cigarete brand when you are not smoking.


Anders is correct, but it was only a recommendation, no gaurantee. Try and see.



DavidT -> RE: String recommendation please (Feb. 2 2007 14:44:24)

Thank you all for your ideas.

My blanca is a Marin Plazuelo. It's a very powerfull guitar, very blanca.

Anders, it's true that unless you play it you just don't know what the sound looks like. And also there are hundreds of different strings out there....It would be quite a challenge to try them all.
But every thing else being equal, there must be a set of string which give you a mellower sound than the other.

Of course a blanca must sound blancaish, a negra must sound negraish. It would be nice to have both....but that's not the case

Dave



xirdneH_imiJ -> RE: String recommendation please (Feb. 2 2007 16:15:25)

i missed the point totally, message deleted :)



legrec -> RE: String recommendation please (Feb. 2 2007 22:01:01)

Dave,

Hey, if I'm not mistaking I now remember you were on Devoe waitlist...Man, that's why we need several guitar : I find my Devoe sometimes lack a little of this untamed blanca sound, and on your side you're asking for a mellower sound in some occasions...
So bad (not really) they have not yet invented the "blanca/negra switch" on flamenco guitars [:)]
Anders, can you do something ? [:D]



DavidT -> RE: String recommendation please (Feb. 2 2007 23:03:52)

Legrec,

Youre so right!!! One should have at least two guitars unless Anders put on the switch on his guitar...



legrec -> RE: String recommendation please (Feb. 2 2007 23:17:28)

Yes, and in fact I like better having two guitars (Anders also, I'm sure [:D]) : my plan is to hang the two on my wall, showing their "black/white" backs at people coming in...
Man, it's so obscene -
it's gorgeous
[:D]



Ricardo -> RE: String recommendation please (Feb. 2 2007 23:26:01)

Personally I dont' see the point. I mean, you want to play flamenco or you want classical sound? No need for a blanca if you want mellow classical sound. Or you want to play flamenco too, but what, you will change string brands depending on what you will play???

Anyway, to mellow out your sound, try Daddario hard or EXTRA hard tension trebles, and let whatever brand bass strings die.

Ricardo



legrec -> RE: String recommendation please (Feb. 3 2007 0:25:39)

I can't speak for Rasgueo, but I feel he wants to be able to play more "mellow" (classical ?) from times to times. So yes, with a change of strings in between... I understand that, you know a sort of period for several weeks in which you want to play more "classical". You're too much into flamenco to feel moments like this, Ricardo ? [:D] (or perhaps you already have a classical)
If I'll have the money, I would buy a classical too. And a blanca. And a blangra. And an oud. a dobro. a sitar. a vihuela. an harp. a double neck 6/12 SG. aaaaahhh



RobJe -> RE: String recommendation please (Feb. 3 2007 10:06:05)

I have 8 blancas. They all sound different ranging from warm to dry with all other kinds of variation. Sometimes I wish one of them would sound a bit more like another and I try changing strings to another brand or tension. To be honest I have never been sure that it has made any difference to how they sound. .I have come to the conclusion that if there are any changes they are too small to notice. My guitars sound like they are and they don't want to change. Perhaps if you want a particular sound you have to put a lot of effort into choosing your guitar - could take a lifetime because you make a lot of mistakes. If you want two different sounds it could take two lifetimes!
Rob



Doitsujin -> RE: String recommendation please (Feb. 3 2007 11:17:38)

We had this discussion so time ago. Just use the "search" button.

But well... I recommend these strings:strings


But this here is a guitar-forum. What a strange question..[>:]



Francisco -> RE: String recommendation please (Feb. 3 2007 11:38:17)

[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]



Jim Opfer -> RE: String recommendation please (Feb. 3 2007 12:50:47)

quote:

But well... I recommend these strings


High tension?[:D]



DavidT -> RE: String recommendation please (Feb. 3 2007 15:44:20)

legrec,

Thank you for understanding...

Dave



guitarbuddha -> RE: String recommendation please (Feb. 3 2007 16:57:53)

You know Segovia's playing is pretty out of fashion, even in classical circles. And he was an a******e about flamenco and basically all other guitar players of any description.

But my he had some tonal variety!

I was talking to John Duarte and he told how at his home segovia astounded everyone with his dazzling array of sounds whilst playing them some pieces. They all assumed it was because he was playing his Ramirez. But when he put the guitar down they noticed that it was a student guitar that had been lying around.

One thing that really frustrates me is when your see a live concert and the PA sound simply destroys the players tonal variety. Or the awful treble boost sound that you get on semi acoustic classical cuatways. Thats why I love those old Paco recordings and find a lot of the newer stuff studio slick but musically pretty indistinct.
Another great example is Paco Pena's playing on the fabulous Toque Flamenco set, a little distortion sure but the sound is bone dry and crystal clear. He has nothing to hide and boy did he prepare those pieces. You can really hear what he is doing and he is doing LOADS with his sound. And you know that he could go out night after night and produce if not the same magic then just as much magic with those allegedly 'simple' pieces.

Or maybe I just dont want to admit how frustrating it is for me that I cant afford a good guitar?



Anders Eliasson -> RE: String recommendation please (Feb. 4 2007 7:47:36)

First of all. I kind of agree with Guitarbuddha and RobJ.

1) Work your tecnique. The guitar is important, but the player is more important and a good guitar has a lot of tonal variety.

2) Guitars sound the way they do and its difficult to change them if not impossible. I have a strong feeling that your playing opens the guitar in a certain way. Strings change sound a bit, but I would prefer to say that some strings work with some guitars while on others no. The most extreme example is LaBella 820 Black trebles. They sound completely dead on 90% of guitars and on the other 10% they sound wonderfull.
There´s a tendency to compensate with strings. To put mellow strings on harsh guitars and visa versa. I totally disagree... It often leads to a poor compromise. As Rob said, the guitar sound the way it sounds and does not want to sound any different
Try putting dry strings on a dry sounding guitar or mellow strings on a mellow guitar. Often the result is surprisingly good. Its like the guitar devellop its good part and doesn´t get worse. Try it.



RobJe -> RE: String recommendation please (Feb. 4 2007 9:41:19)

Good points made by guitarbuddha and Anders.
When we listen to flamenco recordings and concerts we don't really know what these guitars sound like unamplfied - maybe it no longer matters and playablity is the real issue and the electronics does the rest?
There are other issues - this morning I am choosing a guitar to go and play at at a party that will be held in a studio with mirrors covering one wall and glass covering a second wall. Normally when I rehearse there it is relatively empty and the mellowest guitar sounds very bright. Today it will be full of dancers and I know it changes the acoustics .. still not sure what to do!
Rob



guitarbuddha -> RE: String recommendation please (Feb. 4 2007 13:50:09)

I dont mean to be meand Rob but I think that 'Just letting the electronics do it' leads to the death of music artistically and as a means of emotional expression. Also it has lead to the death of session playing and I feel the loss every time I put on the Radio and listen to a computer playing the work of a non-musician producer sang by a musical illiterate and air brushed by a computer then the whole thing compressed to sound big but musically there is nothing going on just sound and beat.
Lets not let flamenco go that way.



RobJe -> RE: String recommendation please (Feb. 4 2007 18:24:36)

I understand your point guitarbuddha and I have some sympathy with it, but it seems to be where we are - especilly for live performance. I am old enough to remember the days when guitarists acccompanying the big touring flamenco companies had no amplification. You needed four guitarists killing their fingers to be heard over the rest of the sound and the loudest possible guitars - playing was pretty unrefined sometimes - not exactly full of emotional expression. I sometimes think that's why my fingers hurt so much these days! The big names in flamenco guitar play to big (and often noisy) audiences and they would probably be upset if you took their mics away. In the world of the classical guitar opinion seems to be divided between those who wouldn't tolerate amplification and those who go in for some 'sound reinforcement' - John Williams is in the latter class I believe. Once you use sound reinforcement you do more than make the sound louder - you change it - so some fx might be necessary to make it sound like a guitar again. In flamenco fx has been taken to extremes. Very few people know what Paco's old Conde or Vicente's Reyes really sound like unamplified, which is a pity. The practice is normal even in small venues. One exception is (or at least was three years ago) Cafe de Chinitas in Madrid - not a mic in sight.

However it would be difficult to say that Vicente's playing lacks emotional expression - for me he is the greatest in this respect.

So, forget looking for strings. Every player needs some guitars with the best possible playability (don't worry too much about these sound) for the times when you are amplified with fx and then they need some with the sound of your dreams for playing unamplified. 4 of each should do the trick - there is no better way to spend your money! Contact Anders immediately before his order book is full.

Rob



guitarbuddha -> RE: String recommendation please (Feb. 4 2007 19:04:31)

Yeah Rob I think were on the same page.
.
When I play backround gigs I always use amplificatin, I do that because its really horrible raking the strings to be heard while people are talking over you.I use some contact mics straight into my amp, I find that it sounds just like my acoustic playing but slightly muddier and more nasal,louder and more forgiving. When I play a top of the range semi acoustic classical cutaway through electronics it sounds like someone else, someone s***. Interestingly enough I think that soeone with a c*** sound and very little musicality would sound the same. Thats probably why things have taken that direction since people want to fix their sound problems with a new guitar or new amp and not with practice and sensitivity.
The speific things that annoy me are that glassy treble boost and way too much compression. Take them away and Im happy. Now for thrash metal distorted tone guitar that compression is really nessecary for the style but whenever I play an electric guitar with that sound after the initial fun I get quickly depressed that I cant vary it at all, I hit the strings hard I get one sound, real soft I get the same sound. With the treble boost things I play dolce I get the same sound as ponticello or metallico, now I know that thats great for people with no control over their sound but it depresses the hell out of me.

Yeah I like Vicentes playing, a little too much reverb for me but definately not too muck compression as there is loads of dynamics all of the time sometimes pp to ff and back in one or two beats. I can still hear what hes doing, not as clearly as Id like but if he likes it....

David.



legrec -> RE: String recommendation please (Feb. 4 2007 21:42:22)

I enjoy very much what everyone is saying here !

But I feel a precision can be made, to come back to Rasgueo/Dave's preoccupation :
quote:

Guitars sound the way they do and its difficult to change them if not impossible


Anders expressed the same thing Robje tell us, and it's approx. that you can't change the sound of your guitar. So, Rasgueo can't give a more "classical" sound to his guitar. Or he must buy another guitar.

I must say that when I get my Devoe negra, it had old Luthier 20 strings on and the saddle was very high. It was playing almost like a "full classical". No bark, no buzz even at full strumming, etc. Mellow. I was disapointed, as a flamenco player even if I could clearly see the guitar was very good.
Then, I took it at my luthier to have a lower saddle and a fret job made to compensate the lower saddle. I changed strings and man, it was night and day. Ok, not night/day but evening/afternoon [:D] I'm very pleased by the guitar since then, as a flamenco player (means it IS flamenco).
BUT my technique was the same before/after and I'm not good enought to have a sonic engineer to process my sound ! So i was still playing the same pieces, same way, no amplification, etc.
My girfriend noticed by herself that the sound was "much more" flamenco...

So i guess we could perhaps say that you can't transform a Plazuelo into a Herman Hauser [;)] but there are some "tricks", like string brand and "age", saddle and string action, technique, etc. to modify a little your sound and "mellow" it a little if that's what you want... But also, as Anders said, that it's difficult to give precise advice without knowing this particular guitar.

Dave, what I can say personally is to give a try to the trick of the higher saddle, as it's really unexpensive and easy to do as long as you have a builder near you. The strings itself aren't as much a "key factor" than string action or technique, in my opinion.



Francisco -> RE: String recommendation please (Feb. 4 2007 22:46:04)

Hu...wha? Strings? Yea, I recommend them.
[:D][:D][:D][:D][8|]



a_arnold -> RE: String recommendation please (Feb. 18 2007 20:09:31)

Sabicas played on Savarez red card (high tension) bass strings and la Bella golden treble strings. I have done the same for 30 years. THe trebles give a liquid, mellow sound, to the melodic line, but yu still get rasp from the bass.

However, Salvador Castillo ships his guitars with d'Addario composite normal tension classical strings. They come with a spare alternate G string that is a carbon fiber composite that really impressed me with its brilliance -- something that the G string often lacks. I'm thinking seriously of switching. Trouble is, I've bought a ton of Savarez/laBella singles to make up the sets I have traditionally used. I got them at a bulk price, so I have a bunch to use up. Good news is, I play right through the Savarez D string within 2 weeks. . . .

Tony Arnold



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