I want your experience about teaching (Full Version)

Foro Flamenco: http://www.foroflamenco.com/
- Discussions: http://www.foroflamenco.com/default.asp?catApp=0
- - General: http://www.foroflamenco.com/in_forum.asp?forumid=13
- - - I want your experience about teaching: http://www.foroflamenco.com/fb.asp?m=55688



Message

Florian -> I want your experience about teaching (Jan. 27 2007 4:46:16)

I havent been teaching long but we never discussed this here, I am the first to admit I am a very inexperienced teacher, so i tought id take this oportunity to learn a bit more from those of you u have more experience with it.


I mean even tho we all mean well sometimes dosent necesarely do the student the greatest service.

I like to make my students feel like absoluteley nothing is beiond theyr abilities, nothingh is imposiblle and that if anybody else can do it so can you as long as you put the time in, I play them stuff and let them pick up what they wanna learn, no matter how hard because i want them to learn stuff that they really like and not just easy stuff, I think i might have overshot on this one guys confidence lol, hes a beginner i tought his some pretty hard Bola farucca, and we did it note by note and he got the notes and changes in like 3 lessons was gonna fine tune the feel and timing now, but i get an email from him..

"hey the song i would like to learn is in the video of this link...cheers

http://www.spikedhumor.com/articles/2781/Corey_Martinez_BMX_Freestyle_Street.html"

Now there is no way i am waisting that time transcribing this for him,(for one i never transcribed a full piece i liked for myself, i am not gonna do it for a beginner, i got my own things to work on too here) not to mention hes nowhere near able to do it, i might have just made him over belive too quic that anything is possible, hes only had 3 lessons lol.

so i am thinking all tho i mean well, and get excited when they do something, and like to inspire them, i might over do it, in pushing them and overdoing the slef belif thing.

So first tell me , what do I do with this video ? do i transcribe it for him ?[&:] and if not how do i say No.

And tell me how u guys do it...

Is too much self belif bad for students ? is me getting excited in front of them bad cause i see them do something well ?
do i let them pick nice falsetas instead of me picking easy ones for them because i think that nicer ones inspire them more and keeps em more motivated ?

Depending on the falseta, i would normally do mibe 5 bars of it in a lesson (note by note), and spend some time in technique, and exercises.


what do you guys do ? what do you start a first time student on ? do you decide or does he ? do you get complimentative ? should i hold back my excitement in front of him

what do you do, i need to get better at this teaching stuff



Ricardo -> RE: I want your experience about teaching (Jan. 27 2007 5:00:39)

URL does not work man.

I try to steer away from complete pieces of music, I only show falsetas and rhythmic chunks. But some students are very advanced and push the teacher, so sure it is ok to keep it going. I have one student very advanced like that. He devours material. But he is young and has some time to devote to it. But every student is different. This guy I am talking about learns the stuff really fast and has it down cold for the next lesson. A few months later I do a review of the basic stuff we worked on last year. He can't remember hardly any of it. That is bad. He has progressed, and has the compas and everything, but he does not really have the time to review and retain all the stuff (school work is his priority). From my point of view as a teacher, he is a great student, very enthusiastic, and it is scary to think how fast he learns. But this not retaining the old stuff is disturbing.

On the other hand, I have students that can't play with a metronome at all. There are all kinds. Some students come with an entire Paco piece down, but none of it in compas. So we have to start over. In the case of this student you have, I don't know really how his compas is. I would have him work on small chunks and really have it cold before going for a whole piece. Perhaps just take a bit of the thing he wants transcribed, the "coolest" part, and do that. There is an old upload vid from "Antonio", who was a brief student I had. He had good rhythm and only had a few lessons. He wanted to learn that Paco falseta you did. But he thought it was way too hard to do the whole thing, so I just showed him that short bit that he liked. He got it down right away, I think he was surprised, and loaded the video here if you remember. To me that is the way to go, regardless of level. There are things of Gerardo Nuñez or Paco de Lucia that ANYONE can play if they really want to. But you have to keep things within your personal "speed" and timing limits.

One more suggestion. Have the guy try to transcribe part of it himself. When he comes to the lesson, work on correcting it for him, rather than doing the work yourself. Who knows, maybe he will become better than you. In fact, that is your goal as a teacher, to make the student go beyond yourself, to put yourself out of your own job.

Ricardo



Florian -> RE: I want your experience about teaching (Jan. 27 2007 5:21:21)

quote:

to make the student go beyond yourself, to put yourself out of your own job.


Il brake his litlle 17year old litlle hands if he does [:)]

thanks for the good advice, i might transcribe part of it, the thing is its a rumba plyed with a pick but the guy reaches very very very fast speeds



dragon999 -> RE: I want your experience about teaching (Jan. 27 2007 9:18:15)

Hi Florian.
The piece behind that BMX video is "Mario Takes a walk" from Jesse Cook's "Gravity" CD. The opening riff can be found here'
http://www.fretplay.com/tabs/c/cook_jesse/mario_takes_a_walk-tab.shtml
I don't know if it's accurate but at least it's something.

I agree with Ricardo, have the guy try to transcribe parts of it himself.
Tell your student you are a teacher not a transcriber. I know from experience that it takes many hours, even days to transcribe music like this. When did the definition of guitar teacher change from paid guide to unpaid slave.

I would get your student to learn this opening riff and then set HIM the task of transcribing the rest, if he dares. You can check his progress and correct his errors as he progresses through it. I can almost guarantee he will quickly lose interest in this piece. (no reflection on the music).

I had one student who seemed to gobble up the sheet music I gave him. I started to feel like a free sheet music dispenser rather than a teacher.
Example: After 2 lessons, he went home and "learned" Paco Pena's Soleares from the "Toques Flamencos" book. He came back the next week and played the notes back to me but there was no feeling in it and his compas was all over the place. He was barely aware of what compas was. I had no problem with that and was prepared to spend the next few lessons tidying it up, but he seemed very pleased with his efforts and just wanted another "piece" to work on. I told him what he just played me was just a bunch of rote learned notes with no life. I also told him Soleares was not a "piece" of music that is recited the same way each time. Blank look. When I told him to put the music away and play me a simple Soleares rhythm in compas all I got was a puzzled look. But I insisted and his attempts clearly embaresed him, especially since his proud father was sitting there watching. I did not really intend to be so mean, but I felt I needed to make a point to shake him out of his illusion. I never saw him again after that lesson.

Putting in the hard yards, such as attempting to work out a piece from a CD is a concept that over clever beginners don't understand. Everything must be handed to them free on a silver platter. These type of students aspire to be glamorous stage performers rather than real musicians. To many students who came to me, flamenco meant Gipsy Kings rumbas. They were more interested in impressing their friends and family at barbecues than learning flamenco. But beginners come in all colors and it is unfair to tar all with same brush. The reality is that every decent musician was a beginner at some time and worked their way up through disciplined techniques and lots of serious practice (ideally). When they want to dive in at the deep end after just 3 lessons, I see a big question mark hanging over their head. Maybe I'm just old fashioned, but if a student had unrealistic expectations I would simply tell him to lay off the whoopee weed and get real.

Best results always came from the dedicated tortoise. The hares tended to fade into obscurity as guitar players. I have no doubt they found something less challenging to impress the girls with. The realistic students were a real pleasure to work and left me with a feeling that my time as a teacher was not a complete waste of time. They knew the difference between Gipsy Kings rumbas and traditional gypsy flamenco.

That's my 2 cents worth.

Hey Florian. Email me and tell me when you play for classes. I've been so slack, but I do want to catch up soon, OK.
Sal



duende -> RE: I want your experience about teaching (Jan. 27 2007 9:38:31)

i got no experience teaching flamenco, over here gypise Kings and ottmar,Jesse c
is not even considered flamenco cause nobody knows what it is[:D]



koella -> RE: I want your experience about teaching (Jan. 27 2007 11:19:21)

I have to say some things about this:[&:]

1. Of course the easiest students to work with are the ones that are like the teacher: dedicated, willing to study hard, mastering every detail. But the fact remains there are all kind of people. So:

2. You got to get in the brain of the student when he's not like you. You get to learn what is motivating him. His motivation is in him, so you got to get it out. No need to blast him away with some remarks so he will never see you again. So:

3. You got two things. You want him to do what you say and keep him motivated at the same time. Give him a slice of the (way too difficult) piece he chooses and let him discover that he's lacking a lot of abilities to play it. Then he'll probably understand the excersises you wanted to give him in the first place.

4. And another thing. Never assume that a (beginning) student knows what he's talking about. He came to you to learn remember ? So no discussions that you, as a teacher, will always win. And he will only be pissed.
Be patient and try to tune his mind slowly your way.

5. Always be honest to him.

6. Never transcribe things that you can't use with other new students. It's a waste of time. Unless they are paying you extra to do it.

Just my 2 cents



Florian -> RE: I want your experience about teaching (Jan. 27 2007 16:18:38)

SALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL !!! :-))) mate, soo good to see you here

thank you, actualy transcribing from that video was part of what i hated atlist with an audio u can use transcribe and slow it down but now i got that tab, so thank you very much.


i am in on every second Monday (starting this week) Wendesday nights, and Saturady all day.



Florian -> RE: I want your experience about teaching (Jan. 27 2007 16:29:19)

Yes you guys all make great points, i mean i would never embarass him, i been every idiot myself as a beginner, wanting to show off for neigbours, to my mom , etc, there are many different things that motivate people and each one is just as valuble as any other, expecially as a beginner and a 17 year old guy.

Weve all been beginners and i am sure weve all done stupid show offi things, I for one have anyways.



Thomas Whiteley -> RE: I want your experience about teaching (Jan. 27 2007 17:46:21)

quote:

I havent been teaching long but we never discussed this here, I am the first to admit I am a very inexperienced teacher, so i tought id take this oportunity to learn a bit more from those of you u have more experience with it.


Florian;

I think I could write a book on this subject. Here is a bit of my experience learning flamenco guitar.

1. My first teacher had me spend the first three months learning flamenco guitar technique. I am glad that she did! It really pays off in the long run.

2. Another teacher required you play from the books he wrote – A to Z, with no variation.

3. Still another teacher who has published many books would choose what you would play based upon his own decisions. He would mark up each piece to add to what you would play according to your ability.

4. Other teachers had no written material – they played and you emulated what they presented.

5. The best teacher I have had is Juan Serrano. He is a teacher’s teacher! He is always positive to his students, extremely supportive and patient. He allows you to ask questions and if you wish to add a variation here and there he will help you.

Consider all the material Juan has created. When I took our son Brian to Juan for his first flamenco guitar lesson (from someone other than myself) Brian brought (unknown to me), a Paco Peña book. He asked Juan about several of the pieces and if Juan could help him. Juan began by stating that “Paco is a good friend”. Juan went on to show Brian what Paco had created and how to play it.

After Brian absorbed that Juan went on to say, “But I would do it this way”, and played variations on Paco’s music, and taught those variations to Brian. So cool! I have it on videotape and enjoy watching “My sons First Flamenco Guitar Lesson”!

I still play some pieces that I learned in the late 1950’s, with variations. Juan helped me to add additional variations on the fly. “That is good. Here, try this”!, were Juan’s comments.

There are many ways to teach flamenco guitar. I have angered some by saying that 85% of teachers are not competent. I believe that is true. They say that 85% of the doctors in the United States are incompetent. At least that is in the same league!

Those who were offended took my words personally even though I have never met them or know anything about their abilities as a teacher. Perhaps some are very sensitive or is that hypersensitive? Could there be a reason? I have no idea. I did receive some very nasty eMails though.

As a teacher you should be supportive, understand the abilities of your student and teach what your student is capable of absorbing. Start with technique, basic palos (short pieces) and teach how to create. If you have copies of my flamenco handbooks you will know what I mean.

Vary introductions, falsetas, endings and all elements of each palo you play. Introduce new falsetas. Enjoy and understand what you are doing.

And remember along with "Practice, practice, practice "to add, "Compas, compas, compas".



Florian -> RE: I want your experience about teaching (Jan. 27 2007 22:13:39)

Hey thank you guys I really apreciate all of this and i have taken notice of all of it, u really have been a great help. all of you.



John O. -> RE: I want your experience about teaching (Jan. 30 2007 9:25:45)

I've spoken with classical teachers who've studied and claim even with all the seminars in the world you really just need to practise teaching. You lose a student, analyze the situation, do it differently next time. I see most students as candles, some burn longer than others.

I'll copy pages from my study books and use those. I also make digital videos of falsetas for students who can't read notes.

I always try to keep in mind what I want to teach for. It's a wonderful thing to see somebody so full of excitement having learned something new and coming back the next week able to play what you've shown them perfectly. I have one of these and he's great, it's so fun working with him.

Rarely do I get the major enthusiasts, always the people who've never heard flamenco but just want to try it out because it seems like fun.

I've had a lot of interesting types. I once tried to teach a woman a Fandango de Huelva and she thought I was teaching it wrong, brought along a classical singer who tried to sing cante jondo off a sheet of notes to my playing. They both left thinking I was a fake.

I had a guy who wouldn't practise compás 5 minutes with me before trying to bring his own ideas into the rhythm, changing everything around. He came to a flamenco school I accompany at - didn't bring the guitar, just wanted to watch. He laughed because everyone was dancing so slow. Mind you, he never practised ANYTHING slow [:D] Maybe he was expecting a juerga with singing and sherry. It was embarrassing to me because the class got that he was laughing at them and the instructor asked afterwards who he was.

Most of my students admittedly don't have time to practice at home or just don't stick around long enough to really get anywhere. Could also be my fault, but they never tell me [&:]

First and foremost is the student enjoying himself, though. If he's not learning anything and you've explained this to him but he still wants to learn something from PDL or never practices - it's his time he's paying for and I'll spend the hour with him (depending on how it might effect my rep as a teacher, of course). It's a service which I earn from, if it's fairly paid and it keeps him coming back, it's all good.

With many though when they've seen Paco playing a bulería then start with basic tientos strumming they get let down and bored way too quickly.



Wannabee -> RE: I want your experience about teaching (Jan. 31 2007 2:18:32)

Some very good advice and experience given above.

If I may offer what I can....not that I am anything... I used to teach basic classical guitar as well as basic pick-style.... almost starved to death doing that.

I now teach EFL (English as a foreign language) so if my comments sound off the wall....it's cause I'm kind of a nut anyways.

You may not like the same things that the student likes or wants to learn, but try to be patient. You never know, if he's a bit interested in Jesse Cook... OK

Help him with that, but show him a bit of bulerias sometimes and see what he thinks. You have to remember where you came from as well, I started out wanting to be a rock guitarist... then jazz, then classical...then all three and sadly found that I was none of the above. When I first heard Paco de Lucia, I was blown away, but I knew I had no hope of ever playing that well...so it kind of discouraged me. I had studied a bit of flamenco with my classical teacher, but found it boring.....mostly because my teacher really didn't know much about real flamenco and even less about how to teach it.
Since then, I've learned a lot from books and videos and things, but nothing can replace an honest to goodness, living, breathing, flamenco guitar teacher. Nothing.

I learned more in 5 days in Spain with a real teacher than in 5 years on my own, but ....since then I am now able to learn a lot more things on my own.



Don't expect to completely change attitudes overnight. Flamenco is an aquired taste and I am slowly developing an appreciation for the art.

Work with what you can and maybe he'll come around, maybe not...you win some...you lose some.

Hope this is in some way helpful.

Cheers



Ricardo -> RE: I want your experience about teaching (Jan. 31 2007 6:50:37)

There was a guy who was interested in flamenco and asked his classical teacher for advice. He ended up studying classical technique and music from a popular teaching method, which included an off shoot of "easy" flamenco variations. It was at this time that he contacted me for lessons. He said that he had been studying classical guitar for almost two years, to prepare himself for his first flamenco lesson, at his teacher's advice. Now he was "ready". [8|]

My only prerequisite for student's first lesson are:1. you bring a flamenco guitar to the lesson, 2. That you actually own some flamenco recordings of some sort, 3. You know how to play a couple of open position chords at least.

I asked if he had any recordings of flamenco guitar he liked. He had Sabicas and Peña. I asked if he had any others such as Paco de Lucia. He said that he DID have Paco, but was surprised I asked since that music was NOT flamenco, Paco was a jazz player.[8|]



John O. -> RE: I want your experience about teaching (Jan. 31 2007 7:42:26)

quote:

Paco was a jazz player


Yeah, I've heard that one too. If I have a student who knows nothing about flamenco I'll also lend out a CD or two. Sometimes even the biggest enthusiasts have no idea what's really out there, I try to push them in the right (that being my, hehe) direction. By doing this I've turned a Manitas de Plata and Carlos Montoya fan into a Gerardo Nunez and Paco de Lucia fan.



John O. -> RE: I want your experience about teaching (Jan. 31 2007 13:50:19)

quote:

show him a bit of bulerias


This is sometimes where it can start to get hairy. First the student has to get through some basic technique. Tientos is great for starts and has the same chords as bulerias. As to the 12/4 though I like starting with soleares because it's nice and slow. I don't like rushing through palos without showing some scales and a couple of nice progressions. So either a beginner student should wait to learn bulerias correctly (possibly losing patience) or demand I just show it to them a la Paco de Lucia, in which case they'll probably have major problems getting the rhythm right as a beginner (possibly losing patience). This is where I must admit I have problems deciding what's best.

Then you get the students who practise 2 hours a day or more and eat up everything you give them. The types that make me love teaching [:)]



Mark2 -> RE: I want your experience about teaching (Jan. 31 2007 14:34:47)

I wish I could offer good advice, but I'm not a very good teacher. At least not for newbies. I've never taken a guy from the first day of flamenco guitar to the point of him being able to do a gig. I've have helped a number of guys learn a ton of stuff as they sat with me in dance classes, but that's easier-your demonstrating and they are usually good enough to see what your doing. Truth is teaching isn't my primary interest and most students aren't hardcore enough to "get it" Guys who just want to learn a bit to amuse themselves don't interest me enough to want to teach. I had one guy a couple years ago who had already taken lessons from a number of flamenco players, but still had no compas. I figured that was the most valuable thing I could give him and decided that was going to be my approach. He lasted two or three lessons.
Flo, I would say that if your going to spend a lot of time teaching you should try to develop a system of organizing your materials and methods, being able to vary them for different students. And I think you have to account for their requests to some degree, even if they veer off from your exact field of interest. I liked the idea of having the student help with the transciption. After all, he doesn't really want to have the transcrption, he wants to play the song. Show him the chords and the first few riffs, then ask him to try to figure out the next few bars by himself for the next lesson. Of course, in that time, you also figure it out in case he doesn't.



John O. -> RE: I want your experience about teaching (Feb. 1 2007 7:42:30)

I don't know how good a teacher I am, but am one of the very few for flamenco in the area, making it quite easy...

Interesting thing happened to me yesterday. I've spent a few hours with a certain student of mine on soleares: rasgueados, simple falsetas and such. Always a little bit cramped, but already has some basics and gets the concept, even if he still plays very slow.

As an example for a modern falseta for fun, I'd given him tab and a video of my hands playing the Chicuelo Solea intro from Encuentro video with all those beautiful, interesting chords. That was maybe a month ago and I hadn't seen him up to last night.

So last night we reviewed the standard soleá intro, compás and a couple of easy falsetas. He got it, still a bit cramped up and slow though, asking often how the notes fit into 12 beats. But then at the end of the hour he suddenly busts out with the Chicuelo falseta played all the way through rhythmically correct without a break [&:]

If that's not underlining the importance of sparking a student's motivation with good material...

I'd be curious to know from a teacher I could assume is very good, that being Ricardo for example, how many students he has, whether he advertises himself as a teacher, how many are regular, how many come once or twice and lose interest.



Ron.M -> Sal Bonavita (Feb. 1 2007 20:39:57)

Hi Sal,
You are most welcome on this Forum.
For about the past 5 years I have enjoyed visiting your great and informative site!

(To those who don't know...Sal started one of the earliest Internet sites around on Flamenco. .. this man deserves mucho respect)


Pull a chair up Sal....and again...a big welcome!


cheers

Ron



Patrick -> RE: I want your experience about teaching (Feb. 1 2007 21:53:23)

Ron,

I agree as well. Sal's famous (infamous) explanation of "what is" and "what is not" flamenco is priceless.

http://herso.freeservers.com/isnot.html



Florian -> RE: I want your experience about teaching (Feb. 14 2007 5:47:51)

Hey thank you, i keep coming back to this post , some great help here.

Ps. Ron & Patrick I love Sal, a great example of no bull no nonsence Australian down to earth atitude.

Was lucky enough to have him as a neigbour and he helped me alot to get me started as did his material and so did Thomas Whiteley's page.

Sal also put togheder my very first Pc, [:D]



Page: [1]

Valid CSS!




Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET