Downward spiral into Flamenco

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Ron.M -> Downward spiral into Flamenco (Dec. 24 2003 21:26:26)
This morning I spotted a post on the FT Forum by "El Smurfo" who has just set up a site. In his "bio" he is surprisingly honest in talking about his life, his successes and failures and his first introduction and now passion with Flamenco. Sadly, he has received no replies. But that's FT people for you! LOL! Very interesting though, for this guy mirrors a lot of "dissatisfied" customers of life who have eventually found that success, money, driving the right car and going to the best parties etc is a bit like a Chinese meal...really tasty but leaving you feeling hungry a couple of hours later! I must count myself amongst these people, in that there is nowhere else I can escape from the banality of workaday life than in the understanding and comforting arms of Flamenco. The fact that my wife or daughter do not understand it make's no difference. In fact I rarely talk about it to anyone. Most of the folk I know don't even know I play guitar...period. I do know now, after being on the Internet for a few years, that others have been stricken by the same "affliction". It seems to transcend education, class and income brackets. (Yeah... and even ToddK! LOL!) What is it with the power of this music, from a small area in Spain that can change people's lives so much? Sometimes I think of us as that group of people in Steven Spielberg's "Close Encounters" movie, who were grouped and waiting on the country road for the spaceships to pass. Certainly, nobody I meet in everyday conversation has the same kind of passion about anything than I think we all share here. Anyway, speaking of spaceships, I'm looking forward and wishing much luck to the Beagle2 Mars Project which hopefully will be landing within the next few hours. It fills me with joy that in this age of Terrorism, Military Conflict, Murderers, Internet Virus Makers, "Iffy" Economics and slippery Politicians, that a bunch of underfunded Amateurs have put a project together with no money and against all the odds, just to find out if there is any sort of life on Mars, for no Military, Commercial or Political reason other than our basic human "need to know", just for it's own sake. Viva Flamenco, Viva Beagle2! LOL! Ron For more Fascinating Facts see:- http://www.beagle2.com

Escribano -> RE: Downward spiral into Flamenco (Dec. 24 2003 21:51:57)
I signed his guestbook with a plug for our site[;)] Not sure about his strategy for a web site, though. A little personal and that can get out of control, down the line; if you know what I mean? My opinion on your point is that we really don't understand flamenco, it's very difficult even to play a simple piece, so it appeals to mostly technically-minded, self-confident achievers. I aliken it to an intellectual version of that Harley moment men (generally) go through. But instead of really changing anything about their lives, taking on new challenges, they just buy a Harley and look daft.

Ron.M -> RE: Downward spiral into Flamenco (Dec. 24 2003 22:17:43)
Simon. Nah! Can't agree with that, although I think you are being your usual joking/cynical self, or maybe had a few drinks, or both. If I'm being honest and digging deep here, I think it has a lot to do with the physical comfort that modern life has to offer, TV advertising, Junk Mail, Pop Idols, Pizzas, Car Alarms, Ringtones, TeleMarketing and the cheapness and mediocrity of life in our satin lined cradle to our satin lined coffin while millions live throughout the world on less than $1 a day. The usual Politician's rant of "Before I start, may I express my condolences to the friends and families...lessons will be learned....an inquiry is being set up....you must respect that I cannot go into individual cases" (the Politician's Mantra), with the decline in churchgoing, yet a need for some kind of spirituality etc. I must admit though, Flamenco has been the ruin of me financially, 'cos once I got the idea, I found it very hard to give my everything to some fevourishly ranting boss driving an XJS and talking about how many millions the Company was going to make. But I'm certainly not complaining, more glad for it! It's the sheer Honesty of the best stuff that touches my very soul. Made me see more clearly. It would take me hours to even try to explain what Flamenco means to me, but I'm sure on this Forum I don't have to. I'm sure if you are being truthful Simon, Flamenco is a million miles from Harleys and all that crap. Maximos Drinkios Ron Maximos Excitimos! see...http://www.beagle2.com

gerundino63 -> RE: Downward spiral into Flamenco (Dec. 24 2003 23:29:01)
Hi Ron. Today I was driving with my wife through the flat rainy countrysite. I had downloaded some montoya records, rather bad and old, (the recording), I like to listen in the car, very loud, doing that, I said to my wife, emagine, we drive now through spain, ad some old folks will see, and hear us, in big coats, gloves on, listening very loud to old Montoya records..........They definatelly think we must be crazy! I said, Imagine, you see some spaniards, through the duch country, listen to some old woodenshoe dances, with this lousy weather! I think, flamenco does more with us, than we think........ greetings, Peter.

Thomas Whiteley -> RE: Downward spiral into Flamenco (Dec. 25 2003 0:07:46)
One of the many nice things about being married to Katy is her encouragement for anything I do. She really likes me to be involved with my music. It fact she will request me to play specific pieces. Just marry a woman trained in flamenco whose family is from Spain, and loves flamenco. Flamenco is my means of stress relief! [:)]

Thomas Whiteley -> RE: Downward spiral into Flamenco (Dec. 25 2003 0:34:10)
Beagle 2 - any relation to Merle? Having worked on the Apollo/LEM project I have some advice. When you land on Mars, do not inhale! [:D] Anybody want to guess who is on Mars to great the crew of Beagle 2? I bet it will be a real estate salesman. Then again this might be where flamenco began!

Escribano -> RE: Downward spiral into Flamenco (Dec. 25 2003 8:46:44)
quote: I'm sure if you are being truthful Simon, Flamenco is a million miles from Harleys and all that crap. That was supposed to be my point[:D]

Ron.M -> RE: Downward spiral into Flamenco (Dec. 25 2003 14:22:52)
Apologies old Bean, I mis-read the last part of your post. [:D] cheers Ron

Thomas Whiteley -> RE: Downward spiral into Flamenco (Dec. 25 2003 16:41:10)
Ron; I had this dream last night that Blair, Bush and Hussein were on Beagle 2. The world would be a better place. But this could destroy our relationship with Mars! [:D]

Ron.M -> RE: Downward spiral into Flamenco (Dec. 25 2003 18:58:12)
LOL! Tom, It's a bit worrying about the lander though. I reckon a passing Martian saw it and thought it was lunch! We'll see tonight in a couple of hours if Jodrell Bank can catch any carrier or not. cheers Ron

bailoro2000 -> RE: Downward spiral into Flamenco (Dec. 26 2003 22:47:36)
Ron. Imagine this for a frightening thought: Suppose all your family and friends were into flamenco. In the same way we disagree on just about everything in life, with everyone having a different take or slant, it would suddenly lose its charm, at least for me. By knowing just a few hundred people from around the globe , most of them we may never meet, we can share an afficion that most of us cant explain being hooked to. Would it be quite the same if we shared it with our workmates? There is a slight Zen quality in flamenco that lets us look inwards instead of out, and find our own inspirations without guidance or opinions from others. Hope that doesn't sound overly profound, but one of the happiest periods of my life was when I was the only one in my little universe who had the vaguest interest in flamenco. Guitar lessons from a classical teacher who thought you could learn flamenco from a book without any previous knowlege brought the first disillusion. Dance classes from teachers who taught parrot-fashion dances without feeling the need for any explanation to students of mood or aire brought more. Now I just listen, watch and learn and have gone back inside myself in my pleasure from the art. Like religion, it is pointless to try converting those who have other beliefs. I no longer try. As far as flamenco goes I am just a hermit and a cyber Gypsy. It's enough (-: Jim.

Phil -> RE: Downward spiral into Flamenco (Dec. 27 2003 0:43:14)
quote: Would it (Flamenco) be quite the same if we shared it with our workmates? No, Jim, it wouldn't. Why? I have an opinion as to why, but I've always said that I'd like to hear what a psychiatrist would have to say about people that embrace a music that is not only foreign to them, but not extremely popular in its country of origen. As different as we are, I think we all share something at a very profound level. I would bet that most of us are not crowd followers. We're not anti-social, but we tend to do what pleases us without much concern that our friends and relatives have no interest in what we're doing. We don't proselytize and try to convince others that Flamenco is something that they should embrace. We've found something that we like, and we don't give a rat's ass if anybody else likes it or not. We are very individualistic, which is probably why there's so much arguing on most Flamenco forums. And I'll even go so far as to say that we probably have higher I.Q.'s than the general populace. I hate to sound elitist, but I truly believe what I've said above. Now, which one of you big-headed, individualistic bastards wants to contradict me? [:D][:D][:D] Phil

Jim Opfer -> RE: Downward spiral into Flamenco (Dec. 27 2003 11:32:05)
Hi Ron, Pop music is glam and all on the surface with no depth. It needs mega promotion and mega sales and millions of folk to soak it up. I never could understand why everyone sings with an American accent and often wondered if our friends in America notice this as we should do here in the UK. Flamenco however, is inward and the deeper you go the greater feeling of solitude, it's a personal experience and can't be shared, even playing with others, be it dancers, singers or other guitarists, it still comes down to you and how you feel and what's in your head. Every time I see a video with one of the 'greats', just following his every day life, there always seems to be an aire of solitude, a kind of sadness that can't be shared or lifted, it's almost a cross to carry in return for the gift. I got a DVD of Paco and the camera follows him around all over the place, but he's afflicted by this solitude as well, living in Mexico and spending hours just sitting playing, trying to find new things. Nobody can help him it has to come from inside. The thing is to have good friends and to know that others understand. Cheers Jim.

bailoro2000 -> RE: Downward spiral into Flamenco (Dec. 27 2003 12:52:39)
Phil. I'll give you a little anecdote that will probably make you smile: One year, on about the third day of our vacation, we were sun-soaking on a costa beach near to Malaga. A Gypsy guy with a guitar was wandering along the playa strumming away and hoping for a few pesetas. Of course, suddenly all the tourists pretended sleep or became very interested in newspapers and books. I beckoned him over, gave him a 200 peseta coin and said "Toca me bulerias" He stared at me in surprise then looked around and waved a hand. Suddenly we were surrounded by four Gypsies, another of them with guitar. The first guy started to play and the others joined in with palmas. Feet stamping in the sand they gave me a real spirited rendition for a full three minutes. At the end I grinned and applauded, receiving the same in return and they went on their way. Those "dreaded" Gypsies made my day and left all the surrounding tourists suddenly staring my way and wondering why I wasn't conforming to the rules. Me, I just went for a swim with a huge surge of adrenalin and a grin as wide as the bay. For 200 pesetas I was King of the Costa. My wife just shook her head and smiled. But then again, she knows me (-: Jim.

Thomas Whiteley -> RE: Downward spiral into Flamenco (Dec. 27 2003 17:24:40)
Good story Jim!

Thomas Whiteley -> RE: Downward spiral into Flamenco (Dec. 27 2003 17:46:22)
Jim; One mans perspective: People from the UK seem to typically sing with “an American accent”. I have noticed this from the early 1950’s before rock. I have heard American’s and British state this many times. The British made American Blues more popular in our own country. Think Albert Lee who does some darn good blues and country and western music. There is a long list. B.B. King thanked British blues players who made his music popular and him more popular in his own country. Sammy Davis Jr. said to Tom Jones during a show, “Are you sure you are not black”? The Welch and Celtic people have some very fine singers, as well as story tellers. Imagine – American blues has to go to England in the early 1960’s to become popular! It returns to its country of origin to be legitimized and popularized. This was not required for flamenco or was it? Without an international audience would flamenco be a legitimate art form? Perhaps people like Carmen Amaya, Sabicas and others had something to do with making flamenco more acceptable in Spain? [:D]

Escribano -> RE: Downward spiral into Flamenco (Dec. 27 2003 17:52:13)
quote: Imagine – American blues has to go to England in the early 1960’s to become popular! It returns to its country of origin to be legitimized and popularized. This was not required for flamenco or was it? i.e. Clapton, now think Hendrix.

duende -> RE: Downward spiral into Flamenco (Dec. 27 2003 19:45:03)
Just to hear one yyyyaaa ya yaaaaaaa from Camarón save´s my day. Henrik (duende)

Miguel de Maria -> RE: Downward spiral into Flamenco (Dec. 27 2003 21:53:19)
quote: Without an international audience would flamenco be a legitimate art form? Perhaps people like Carmen Amaya, Sabicas and others had something to do with making flamenco more acceptable in Spain? [:D] Despite all the talk of "purity", and the legend of flamenco being of and for gypsy communes, flamenco has always been supported to a large degree by foreigners enchanted with its exoticism, as well as other qualities. It wasn't until Garcia Lorca and his cadre that flamenco began to get a bit of legitimacy. But this very Spanish art would have gone the way of Ragtime if it weren't for inquisitive Euros and Americans!

Miguel de Maria -> RE: Downward spiral into Flamenco (Dec. 27 2003 21:56:36)
quote: ORIGINAL: bailoro2000 Imagine this for a frightening thought: Suppose all your family and friends were into flamenco. In the same way we disagree on just about everything in life, with everyone having a different take or slant, it would suddenly lose its charm, at least for me. By knowing just a few hundred people from around the globe , most of them we may never meet, we can share an afficion that most of us cant explain being hooked to. Would it be quite the same if we shared it with our workmates? There is a slight Zen quality in flamenco that lets us look inwards instead of out, and find our own inspirations without guidance or opinions from others. Jim. Jim, hmm, I don't buy it, at least for myself. I do play professionally, and some of my closest friends are musicians as well. There is a difference, of course. When you realize that 90% of music is a system that must be learned, it loses much of its mysticism. It's kind of the difference between being a fan who loves music, who knows nothing about how the music is made. When that person learns about chords and time signatures and scales, there is something lost--innoccence. It's why adults can't enjoy Disneyland to the same degree as kids. But we adults have our own pleasures.

bailoro2000 -> RE: Downward spiral into Flamenco (Dec. 27 2003 22:54:25)
"It wasn't until Garcia Lorca and his cadre that flamenco began to get a bit of legitimacy. But this very Spanish art would have gone the way of Ragtime if it weren't for inquisitive Euros and Americans! quote: " Hey Miguel, my turn to do a little not buying (-; : Spanish "Senoros" hired flamenco musicians to sing and play for them long before Garcia Lorca's resurgence of the art. Civil war drove the flamencos into their shells to some degree, but spawned a whole new range of cantes from it. Flamenco isn't exactly a big time thing outside of Spain even today, except amongst those who have become afficionados or those who cling to the stereotype " Strumming guitars, dark-eyed gypsy girls, tight-trousered male dancers and stacatto dancing" image of the country. Theatre flamenco and dance shows, particularly those portraying Lorcaesque storylines are what are mostly popular with the general public, even in Spain. Intoduce the cante aspect and the interest level wanes considerably except in the south. In fairness, solo guitarists recordings have raised the level of people taking up that branch of the art. Dance too, through the medium of classes has had a hand in things. My whole point is that flamenco is having its biggest upsurge for years, not outside of but inside Spain (unfortuanately, fusion is one of the reasons) but whilst it may have gone the way of ragtime outside of Spain, I think you would have a hard time selling that story to the flamencos who live there. Lorca lived in Granada and, although he is revered as a literary talent in Spain, his views on flamenco might not be shared in other areas, even by the Gitanos. Even Paco de Lucia is more revered outside of Spain for his playing skills of guitar then inside it for his flamenco. Flamenco may have stayed in the pueblos but it can never be classed with ragtime. This is, of course, as usual, just my opinion. ((-; Jim.

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