For Eddie Lastra (Full Version)

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Phil -> For Eddie Lastra (Dec. 21 2003 11:20:52)

Eddie,
I was looking at an old tablature I have of PdL's Fandango de Huelva 'Punto Umbria' and low and behold on the last page is written 'para Edgardo Lastra, con afecto, Peter Baime. 1982'. Is that you? I bought a couple of Baime's transcripts way back when. They were spot on, but damned expensive at the time. I think about $25.00 each and twice that if it was by request, but there was little else available at the time. Is Baime still around? I was always impressed by his ability to transcribe such complex material. In fact I still can't play the stuff I bought.[:o]
Phil



eslastra -> RE: For Eddie Lastra (Dec. 21 2003 19:14:35)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil

Eddie,
I was looking at an old tablature I have of PdL's Fandango de Huelva 'Punto Umbria' and low and behold on the last page is written 'para Edgardo Lastra, con afecto, Peter Baime. 1982'. Is that you? I bought a couple of Baime's transcripts way back when. They were spot on, but damned expensive at the time. I think about $25.00 each and twice that if it was by request, but there was little else available at the time. Is Baime still around? I was always impressed by his ability to transcribe such complex material. In fact I still can't play the stuff I bought.[:o]
Phil


Phil,
Yeah, that's me [:D] I've been out of touch with Peter for a long time, but I've heard he's still teaching and playing. I had him do a couple of transcripts for me, very accurate as you've mentioned, and ones that I still can't play [:@] I recall Peter was one of the group of Americans that hung out at Don Pohren's Moron Finca in the late '60's. An excellent guitarist and a real nice person.



Phil -> RE: For Eddie Lastra (Dec. 21 2003 20:22:07)

Eddie,
I continue to be amazed at what a small world we live in. I've had that tablature for about 16 years now and I run into (a virtual run in) the person it was written for. I think if Peter Baime had had a little more marketing know-how he'd be as well know as Alain Faucher. So he's another Moronie. How many Americans studied with Diego del Gastor? It seems that 90% of the guitarists on these forums that are over 50 went to Morón. I first came to Spain in 1972, but I didn't get interested in Flamenco until about 1974. I could have gotten in on the tail end of the Morón thing had I been interested in flamenco when I first came. Oh well, maybe it's for the better. The world doesn't need another Morón fanatic. [;)]
Phil



Thomas Whiteley -> RE: For Eddie Lastra (Dec. 22 2003 0:44:57)

Phil;

Diego and his nephews touched a lot of Americans, many of whom were avoiding the draft. Playing flamenco was better for them than Vietnam. The reason so many of them are pissed off at each other is simple. It has to do with pecking order. Some were not invited to fiestas, etc., and will never forget nor forgive. Just about all will tell you they studied with Diego, which is not true.

A few of the students of Diego, like Chris Carnes, and David (Jones) Serva did well. Chris passed away and David as you know lives in Madrid.

Diego had an interesting style that I enjoy listening to and playing, as well as other styles. Morón de la Frontera has several styles of guitar playing, if you listen closely.



Pedoviejo -> RE: For Eddie Lastra (Dec. 22 2003 20:27:35)

Morón! No, please, no more Morón!

When I first got bit by the flamenco bug, the only book I could find on the subject that really covered the basics was Donn Pohren’s “Art of Flamenco.” Years and years later, it was still the only book. And it was in fact the only book in Spanish that covered the ABC’s between its covers in a reasonably thorough fashion. Donn, however, was under the spell of Diego del Gastor and the whole Morón scene, and being passionate about it was also very opinionated. For years, people who were introduced to the basics of flamenco through his book got the idea that the “most authentic” flamenco was that which came from Morón, and that the only REALLY authentic guitarist was Diego del Gastor. Everyone at the “Cuevas de los Flamencos” at the old Spahetti Factory in San Francisco – which included Davy Jones (later “David Serva Jones”) – tried their best to imitate the whole Morón “look and feel.” And they got even more opinionated than Donn and hence could be rightly righteous pains in the tail, looking down their collective noses at anything else that wasn’t Moronized. It became positively biblical: And the Moronites smote the Madrilites, and yeah, the wrath of the Puristas was with them…

I never heard Diego del Gastor play live, and from what I understand, “you just had to have been there.” That may be since he certainly had to have had something. But without his touch and the right ambiente his falsetas can bore one to tears, single notes bending and droning and droning and bending incessantly while the semi-comatose acolytes shout throaty Olé’s. Donn Pohren and I later struck up quite an interesting correspondence over this. I wrote him this long letter explaining how his book was the first real introduction to me; then about running into all the monotonous Dieguitos; then cursing his name because of what he had done; then finally re-reading his book and realizing that what he said in essence was “Diego is great, but his style is so personal and idiosyncratic that no one should ever try to imitate it.” And of course so many never seemed to have read further than “Diego is great…” and immediately set out to imitate him. I finished the “Dear Mr. Pohren” letter with, “Sorry to write you such a long letter but serves you right for being such an opinionated son of a bitch.” He wrote back a long letter which began, “Dear Kevin: I’m addressing you this way since I think fellow sons of bitches should be on a first name basis…” And he confirmed that that was exactly what he wrote but it got ignored.

Then there was the whole Finca Espartero scene in Morón that was apparently the best time in Donn’s life and the lives of bunches of others who visited there. Like that bottle of wine I wrote about in some other thread: it just doesn’t travel very well.

Pedoviejo



Escribano -> RE: For Eddie Lastra (Dec. 22 2003 21:22:18)

quote:

the Finca Espartero scene in Morón


Kevin
You are going to have to recommend some books on flamenco (in English) as I have none and want to read over Christmas.

Anyone else with suggestions?

Nice post, by the way. I wonder what Estela makes of it, she's in Morón I believe.

El Escribano (I like that[8D])



Phil -> RE: For Eddie Lastra (Dec. 23 2003 1:38:13)

I’m glad to see everyone using the accent mark in Morón after the recent brouhaha.[;)] Apparently no one liked my extremely clever joke in another thread that we should change the name from ‘foroflamenco’ to ‘Morons de la Frontera’. But enough of that, let’s get on to more important things.

Kevin, you are a brave man. If you said what you said about Diego de Gastor on another forum you’d have a team of hit men staking out your house right now. Pohren did one hell of a great job in explaining Flamenco to the English-speaking world. My only criticism of him has always been that he seemed to be lamenting the bygone good old days even while he was living in the good old days. After reading his book in 1976 I went searching for DdG records and, of course, didn’t find any except for 1 cut of him accompanying Joselero. I did, however, eventually run across the recordings that Dieguito de Moron made in homage to DdG, and I’ve been told that they are pretty accurate copies of DdG falsetas and style. I immediately liked what I heard by Diego del Gastor and his nephew. I had been listening to Sabicas, Serranito, Pdl and Sanlucar, and this Morón stuff had a unique, original, earthy sound that appealed to me (and it was playable[:D]). It was like when I first heard Howlin’ Wolf after being introduced to the blues via the British Blues groups in the ‘60s. Anyways, I like the Morón style of playing, especially as played by Paco de Gastor. I absolutely love the way he plays Bulerias. But I also was blown away the first time I heard Marote accompanying Fernanda de Utrera.

The problem with the die-hard Moronites is they don´t seem to like anyone who’s still alive. I´ve always felt that their vitriolic criticism of Paco de Lucia was simply a parroting of Pohren´s early comments and a bit of envy of PdL´s technical abilities and his pervasive influence. They still criticize him now, at a time when most younger people consider PdL’s pre-1980´s stuff to be traditional Flamenco!

I don´t quite agree with your take on the Morón style, but I find your comments refreshing after reading so much outright idolatry of DdG. At least here you can voice your opinion without having your head handed back to you. [;)]

Phil



Pedoviejo -> RE: For Eddie Lastra (Dec. 23 2003 15:26:21)

Yes, Phil, not having to barricade my doors and windows and boil oil on my roof in preparation for an assault is refreshing. What I said about “biblical proportions” was not a random metaphor. The most radical Moronites had many of the characteristics of fanatical religionists: They love their own religion very, very much and inversely hate anyone who refuses their religion very, very much. It’s their way or the highway. Non-radical religious people treat their religion like a spa: Someplace you go and something you do on a regular basis which makes you feel better. (Starting to sound like flamenco, isn’t it?) To me, religion is all about how it (a) makes you feel about yourself and (b) how it makes you feel and behave towards others. If it fills you with fury and hate, there’s an inherent problem that’s in serious need of correction. I’m not saying anger is per se and always wrong: Anger about injustice and cruelty is not just okay but necessary in my book. But hate and anger towards others merely because those others don’t share your beliefs or emotional responses is not acceptable.

I do in fact appreciate many of the artists from Morón. Like you said, the falsetas of the Morón guitarists are very accessible, especially to beginners. But that’s both the blessing and the curse. Take, for example, Vicente Amigo’s creations. Many of them are what I call “deceptively simple.” On the surface they have little to do with the Morón style, and yet they are quite related. Note Vicente’s use of constant thematic repetition. Repetition is something that is taught in conservatories – think Ravel’s “Bolero,” a tour de force of repetition of theme (a/k/a “how to repeat the same thing over and over and over for twenty minutes without boring your audience to tears”). Vicente repeats his themes much more than other “top” guitar soloists, and that’s one of the hallmarks of the Morón “school”: simple themes constantly repeated in such a way as to keep them fresh and alive. And there lies both the art and the skill. My gripe with the imitators is that they get the repetition but miss the nuances, the changes of inflection, the rhythmic surprises. It’s a delicate art that is very easy to crush with a heavy hand. Think Ravel’s “Bolero” played by only one instrumentalist. Whatever the instrument the result would be the same: At just about 13 minutes, 23 seconds you’d either be screaming from the room or grabbing the nearest piece of furniture with which to bash the player. And that’s just about how the Morón imitators make me feel (with some exceptions, of course).

Now that I’ve said that, I think I need to add the opposite to give this discussion some balance. Many moons ago, a music theory and composition professor told my class that one could always spot a new composer by the sheer quantity of themes he tried to stuff into one symphony. He’s new and young and bursting with ideas, and feels that he needs to proudly display them all to the world as soon as possible. But all those themes going off in all directions only confuse the audience and muddy the work. With maturity, he said, a composer learns to limit a composition to very few themes, preferably no more than three (if I remember the number correctly). Then he will have the time and opportunity to develop those themes through – yes! – repetition and variation. It’s that repetition which “teaches” the theme to the listener, the variation of the same theme which keeps the listener’s interest, and if it’s a “successful” theme competently handled, the audience will walk away from the performance whistling it.

Once again, the classical Greeks were spot on: Take of all things, know all things, but balance in all things.

Pedote



Miguel de Maria -> RE: For Eddie Lastra (Dec. 23 2003 18:26:23)

I thought the Morons de la Frontera joke was funny. I have to say the whole Moron thing never got through to me...just sounded like a the guitar imitating rhythmic farts. Vicente, to me, writes pieces, while most flamencos string together falsetas--more traditional perhaps, but certainly not integrated pieces of music. Sometimes they seem like that way, of course. The randomness of flamenco is one of its greatest pleasures, or the improvisatory feel, I guess I should say. Yet I like composed pieces of music.



Paul Bruhns -> RE: For Eddie Lastra (Dec. 24 2003 15:38:27)

Kevin, Phil:

Guys, I really enjoyed your posts above! I see I have much to learn! I have the Recording "Cultura Jondo 20" the cante of Joselero and the guitar of Diego de Moron (place the accent in the proper place). Diego plays the accompanyment attributed to DdG, and although technically unaccomplished, I happen to love this style of playing. I don't care if it's considered rudimentary and uninspiring in the contemporary scene... I don't care! Flamenco is about feeling, and I am entitled to my feelings!

But, I must thank you for the thoughts on "recurring themes". It gave me something new to listen for in the music. For me, the Siguiriyas epitomizes the concept in Flamenco. If you have any Joselero recordings (and I only cite this example because I have the CD playing at the moment in my computer) and you can find a pice called "Hasta en el andar" where he is accompanied by Diego de Moron I feel the recurring theme in a way that rolls and builds at the same time. This is a good thing! Something I never paid much attention to before.

Merry Christmas

Paul



Pedoviejo -> RE: For Eddie Lastra (Dec. 24 2003 19:03:57)

Simon -

Recommending a "good" book about flamenco in English is tough. There's a new one just out published by Mel Bay Publishing. I haven't read it, and I have to say the fact that it's a Mel Bay publication does not inspire much hope. (The numerous Mel Bay guitar methods were all of the "you too can play guitar in three easy lessons" school of pedagogy.) I have "Flamenco," a collection of essays edited by Claus Schreiner, which is published out of a small Washington state press and is translated from that most flamenco of languages, German. You can find my review of it on Amazon.com where I cover some of its numerous inaccuracies. (My personal favorite: "Bulerías, for example, are to this day rarely sung, let alone danced by payos [non gypsies].")

By default, Donn Pohren's hoary "The Art of Flamenco" seems to remain the one more or less comprehensive book about flamenco in the English language.

If you want some real laughs, get William Washabaugh's "Flamenco: Passion, Politics and Popular Culture." It's supposed to be a scholarly work by and for cultural anthropologists, but instead it's an outstanding argument why his sort of "cultural anthropology" should be eliminated from all faculties and its funding cut. Here's but a very few examples of what lies between its covers:

"As a result, top-down interpretations look to clarify genres from their origins to their present conditions, describing evolutionary processes and periodizing stages of development, thereby making it possible to isolate the different historical threads that get knotted together in contemporary experiences. The problem raised by such top-down interpretations is 'abstract objectivism.' As Mikhail Bakhtin and his colleagues have noted, something is wrong with any interpretive method that reifies genres and objectifies abstractions to the point that events in the present are reduced to reflections of the past."

He must have understood that passage because he goes on to provide a solution:

"By contrast, a bottom-up approach shows little interest in defining genres and identifying objects, but instead concerns itself with the web of significations in which any aspect of cultural life is entangled..... Where, one might ask, is this regressive politics? Our bottom-up exploration of the flamenco style will answer this question, showing that indeeed a seductive but tacit strain of backward-looking politics hides beneath the cloak of flamenco passion."


And yet another howler:

"...Musical metonyms are behaviors that rehearse politics, operating wherever music walks people through a course of action that has the potential of channelling interests and resolving quarrels. Via metonymical action, bodies inadvertently do politics while enjoying music. Unlike metaphors, which operate always from a distance, metonyms practice politics by proximity and contact, and, crucially, the contact is muscular not mental, bodily not conceptual...... Such muscular politics of musical metonymy is nicely illustrated by the chanted dialogs decribed by Greg Urban (1991: 123ff.). In moments from the ethnographic film "The Feast", Urban explores some political metonyms embodied by Yanomamo of southern Venezuela..."

I think that qualifies as "jargon clotted gibberish". Get your copy before they're sold out!

El P.



Thomas Whiteley -> RE: For Eddie Lastra (Dec. 24 2003 19:17:09)

Anthropology – while I was in college (many moons ago) I took many courses in this subject. It irritated my professor when I gave my definition of his field of study. My inspiration for the following I attribute to Dr. Leaky.

“An anthropologist is a person who can pick up the jaw bone of an ass that died 2000 years ago and tell you what its rider had for breakfast”! Oh well, I have not changed my opinion. [:D]



Escribano -> RE: For Eddie Lastra (Dec. 24 2003 19:48:59)

quote:

“An anthropologist is a person who can pick up the jaw bone of an ass that died 2000 years ago and tell you what its rider had for breakfast”!


Would that be an Indo-European or Eurasian ass?[;)]



Escribano -> RE: For Eddie Lastra (Dec. 24 2003 19:51:27)

I think I'll check out Mel Bay - understanding flamenco with a nod to the bottom-up political metonym of the ignorant payo [;)]



Thomas Whiteley -> RE: For Eddie Lastra (Dec. 24 2003 20:37:02)

Simon;

As ass is an ass except in the UK, where it might also be an arse! [:D]



zata -> RE: For Eddie Lastra (May 20 2005 8:05:51)

quote:

Nice post, by the way. I wonder what Estela makes of it, she's in Morón I believe.


This is an old conversation, please forgive me for not stopping by more often.

I just wanted to ask people not to take the Moronie thing lightly, not matter how screwy it seems. The explicit public threats I received led to one individual being deprived of his mail account and having professional problems as well. He received the support of the entire Moronie forum, and I was expelled for having forwarded one of his more threatening messages to the server (they were very strict about verifying the authenticity of the message). Not one person protested, or even suggested that perhaps ideas should be countered with ideas, as opposed to physical violence.

These people are not playing games.



Escribano -> RE: For Eddie Lastra (May 20 2005 8:49:27)

You should stop by more often, you're always welcome here[;)]



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