laminated rosewood and cypress? (Full Version)

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Ricardo -> laminated rosewood and cypress? (Dec. 12 2006 20:16:22)

I came across these two Ramirez guitars (jose iii 1967 and 69) in a book about classical guitars, and the description was "western red cedar top, laminated Brazillian rosewood and cypress back and sides". They further describe it as "customarily used by Ramirez....rosewood lined with cypress".

So what is that about? On the outside it simply looks like rosewood. How is it "laminated" and is the cypress inside the guitar or something? And finally....why????

Ricardo



Jim Opfer -> RE: laminated rosewood and cypress? (Dec. 12 2006 21:11:11)

I recall reading this as well but can't remember the reason. Not much help[:)]
I have Jose Ramirez's book and I'll flick through it see if it's mentioned. Can't think wherelse I would have read about it[8|]



legrec -> RE: laminated rosewood and cypress? (Dec. 12 2006 21:30:02)

Ricardo,

I don't know anything on these particular Ramirez but I remember seeing an Amalio Burget (the "top" model with the B engraved on the head) with rosewood ("laminated brazilian" said the ad) on the "outside" of the guitar, and cypress on the "inside". I don't know if the two layers of wood were joined or if there where some space between the two. A sort of a double back guitar.
About the "why" : it was was supposed to "get the better" from the two worlds of woods and improve projection.
I didn't played it, but it's weird to see cypress from the rosette hole and rosewood on the back of the guitar.
I think I'm also remembering a "not-much-known" luthier's guitar like this as well on ebay.

As it's rather rare, I suppose the idea was not so "brilliant", or perhaps very hard to acheive ?

Legrec



legrec -> RE: laminated rosewood and cypress? (Dec. 12 2006 21:35:02)

Here it is :



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legrec -> RE: laminated rosewood and cypress? (Dec. 12 2006 21:37:02)

And the back : (yes, it's the same guitar)



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Tomás Jiménez -> RE: laminated rosewood and cypress? (Dec. 12 2006 21:42:28)

I



koella -> RE: laminated rosewood and cypress? (Dec. 12 2006 21:48:55)

A few years ago I sold my 1976 Ramirez.
It had Indian pallisander back and sides. The sides were laminated with cypres on the inside.



Patrick -> RE: laminated rosewood and cypress? (Dec. 12 2006 22:18:58)

There have been many discussion on several forums as to why the laminations. First off, it's important to realize the laminations were only on the sides, not the backs. There has also been discussion that the laminations were of maple.

Some say it was Ramirez way of eliminating wolf notes, but that seems dubious. Other thoughts were an attempt to make the sides more rigid, transferring more energy to the top.

One other reason may have been to avoid cracking. The fact is, Brazilian is very prone to cracking. But the problem with that theory is I have seen (and owned) East Indian 1a's that were lined as well.

Jose only knows for sure, and he ain't talking



Ricardo -> RE: laminated rosewood and cypress? (Dec. 12 2006 23:44:21)

Cool. Interesting guys. Thanks for the pics of the Burget.



chinito -> RE: laminated rosewood and cypress? (Dec. 13 2006 1:03:46)

Found some more info on laminatede sides:

www.trentonscott.com/deerheadBackSides.shtml
www.hillguitar.com/scripts/frameit.cgi?/newsletter/archive/current_issue.html

Basically their reasoning is as Patrick said, more energy to the top and side reinforcement. David Schramm uses laminated sides a lot, but he seems to build more classicals than flamencos.

-Jake.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: laminated rosewood and cypress? (Dec. 13 2006 8:23:37)

A reason to laminate sides is stifness and sturdyness. If you do this oups into a table corner, the laminated side is a lot stronger, and some hardwoods are very fragile and splintery.

You laminate backs in order to make a heavy looking guitar lighter and to get the best of two worlds. It can be good and it can be bad. Sometimes compromises just makes the bad parts com through.

I´ve seen an ebony guitar laminated with cypress. Looked good, sounded dead.



Guest -> RE: laminated rosewood and cypress? (Dec. 20 2006 7:27:48)

Whats this cardboard box guitar story ive heard where some guy built a guitar with carboard back and sides but good soundboard to prove its the soundboard that makes the difference.....or is that bullsh$#[:D]



Anders Eliasson -> RE: laminated rosewood and cypress? (Dec. 20 2006 7:42:07)

The biggest name in the history of the Spanish guitar, Torres, builded a guitar with cardboard (papel maché) back and sides.

People love to use it as an example on how little the back and sides influence in the sound of a guitar.

Its a lot of myth... The guitar is in a very bad shape and has been so for decades or more, so you cant really make a test.
I can tell you that if you make 2 guitars as similar as possible, 1 with Indian rosewood and another with cypress, they will sound different and react differently in the hands of a player. the mass and damping factor or you may call it impedance is very different in the two woods.
Another thing is if theres any difference between rosewoods besides the look. To be honest I´m very sceptical with that one.
Other negra tonewoods (non dalberghia) sound different. I did not say better or worse.



Guest -> RE: laminated rosewood and cypress? (Dec. 20 2006 7:48:38)

quote:

The biggest name in the history of the Spanish guitar, Torres, builded a guitar with cardboard (papel maché) back and sides.

Interesting, why do u think Torres built this guitar?



nhills -> RE: laminated rosewood and cypress? (Dec. 20 2006 14:03:23)

Let me know if this doesn't work - haven't tried it before.

This is part of a recording of Torres' cardboard guitar. It has been restored and the recording and discussion of the guitar are from "Masterpieces of Guitar Making" by Stefano Grondona and Luca Waldner. They also say it was built to show the unimportance of the back & sides, but I agree with Anders - I can't see how different woods could fail to influence the sound. Note I said "influence", not determine - obviously construction is a major part of it.

http://www.4shared.com/dir/1563679/4542b81b/sharing.html

Cheers,
Norman



JBASHORUN -> RE: laminated rosewood and cypress? (Dec. 20 2006 15:55:21)

quote:

Let me know if this doesn't work - haven't tried it before.

This is part of a recording of Torres' cardboard guitar. It has been restored and the recording and discussion of the guitar are from "Masterpieces of Guitar Making" by Stefano Grondona and Luca Waldner. They also say it was built to show the unimportance of the back & sides, but I agree with Anders - I can't see how different woods could fail to influence the sound. Note I said "influence", not determine - obviously construction is a major part of it.

http://www.4shared.com/dir/1563679/4542b81b/sharing.html

Cheers,
Norman


Norman, the link didn't work for me. perhaps you could try uploading it as a putfile? www.putfile.com http://putstuff.putfile.com/

I was also taught about this guitar with paper-mache back and sides... one of my old teachers insists it is truth, but i'm not quite sure myself...

Jb



nhills -> RE: laminated rosewood and cypress? (Dec. 20 2006 18:29:34)

OK - try this:

http://media.putfile.com/Cardboard-Torres

Cheers,
Norman



JBASHORUN -> RE: laminated rosewood and cypress? (Dec. 20 2006 18:45:55)

Thanks Norman, the putfile worked now. To be honest, for a guitar that has a cardboard/papermache back and sides, it doesn't actually sound that bad. Perhaps more classical sounding than Flamenco to my unsophisticated ears, but still I wouldn't have guessed that it was made from old copies of "El Sol". Shows what I know...

Jb



nhills -> RE: laminated rosewood and cypress? (Dec. 20 2006 19:34:46)

Yes - it's a classical. Torres didn't build any guitars designated as "flamenco" - in fact, (if my memory is correct), only one of the surviving Torres has a golpeador (and it may not be original.) A number of his guitars are cypress, but still considered just as Spanish guitars.

The idea of guitars built specifically as "flamenco"s seems to have originated with Manuel Ramirez sometime around 1900.

Cheers,
Norman



pablus -> RE: laminated rosewood and cypress? (Dec. 21 2006 16:08:40)

The lamination (I am not talking about the cheap laminated back&side guitars) increases the stiffness and strength of the sides/back. There is some philosophy in modern guitar making which says that the back and sides should be very stiff and heavy so that they do not vibrate and maximum energy is transferred via the top soundboard. The lamination will also increase the stability of the back/sides. However one has to bear in mind that this process will destroy the specific sound timbre that is usually associated with a particular tonewood (this is mainly relevant to the back lamination).
I believe that the lamination should not be used in flamenco guitars unless its a part of a carefully designed concept - and even then only the sides and not the back.

As to other posts saying about the impact of the tonewoods I would say that it will have an impact on the sound of an instrument but to a lesser degree that the top wood. This means that an excellent luthier will make a fantastic instrument with, for example, a good set of indian rosewood, and a bad luthier will not be able to make a good sounding instrument with a good set of brasilian rosewood.
The subject of the wood quality/importance can be continued, because even the neck material has some impact on the sound of an instrument, and also the bridge material has some impact. The bracing material also has some impact... Putting all things together we obtain a very complex equation with many variables. It takes really some good skills to be able to figure out all the dependencies and work out a great instrument.

Pawel



Guest -> RE: laminated rosewood and cypress? (Dec. 21 2006 18:24:59)

Curiously enough, my friend Rafael has just made an Indian rosewood guitar with laminated sides: 2 sides of 2mm glued together, as a result of a friendship with an Italian luthier. It weighs a ton but sounds great: every flamenco who plays it loves it but it is likely to go to a professional classical player from Cordoba.

In spite of this, he is not planning to make another one.

Suerte

Sean



Anders Eliasson -> RE: laminated rosewood and cypress? (Dec. 22 2006 8:17:21)

There are this theory, that the sides do not add to the sound production and when you make them thicker, they will stabilize the back and top, making them vibrate more freely.

If thats good or bad, thats personal. It depends on what you are looking for.



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