How to clap (palmas) ? (Full Version)

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Ex -> How to clap (palmas) ? (Dec. 3 2006 16:13:45)

Help me please, I really want to be able to clap this "offset clapping" with another person together. I often tried to clap between the clap of the other person, but it does not work, I always clap at the same time when the other person claps, how can I clap between his claps, so that we get this "offset" sound, is there a special trick, because I have seen many people who are able to clap in this style, so I must be able too.



rombsix -> RE: How to clap (palmas) ? (Dec. 3 2006 16:37:45)

Hey Ex,

I can give you two pieces of advice:

First:

Have one person start clapping normally (and slowly), then start (yourself) clapping, but make the initial / starting position a "closed" one rather than an "open" one. When you want to clap (like for example, after PdL finishes playing La Barrosa live on stage!!), you usually start off the "clapping cycle" by having your hands apart (initial / "open" position), then you begin to move them towards each other. Your brain immediately thinks of the cycle as starting with the "apart / open" position and ending at the "together / closed" postion. Thus it will feel natural to perform such a clapping cycle.

For "contra-clapping" to work, I find it helpful to think of the cycle as though it starts at the "closed / together" position (for you), and at the "open / apart" position for your friend (or vice versa; it does not matter). Hence, make your friend start clapping slowly, then start your clapping cycle with a "closed / together" position when he has his hands in the "open / apart" position. Make sure to start off slowly and keep going for a long time. Then start to speed up gradually.

I am right-handed, so I have another way of helping myself with this clapping style. I tend to move my right hand more than my left one to a degree that my left one nearly remains stationary (not fully though). I try to imagine as though there is a wall of air to the right of my right hand, so as I move my right hand to the left, it strikes my left hand - and as I move my right hand to the right, it strikes this "imaginary wall." I don't know if that will help you, but you can try.

Second:

Practice very slowly. Don't think you'll be able to pull it off in a couple of days. It needs time, just like any guitar technique.


That's all I have for now. Let me know if this was of any help.

Ramzi



duende -> RE: How to clap (palmas) ? (Dec. 3 2006 17:51:26)

take a look at flamenco-teacher.com Ricardo wrote some good stuff at that foro
his name is Racer-x over there



Ricardo -> RE: How to clap (palmas) ? (Dec. 9 2006 6:15:37)

Get a metronome, and learn how to clap on the beat first. There are folks that have rhythm naturally and others who need to work on it. There is no special "trick", but one must be able to "feel" the rhythm in order to do it. Learn to keep a beat. Then learn to play the "up beat", then learn how to subdivide the beat further. If you can divide a beat into 4 equal parts, then you are on your way. 1,2,3,4. The metronome click is only on "1". That is the beat. Do it slow at first, accenting "1". Then clap 3 only. Use your foot on "1", always. Then try clapping 3,4 only, keep the foot on 1. Then try clappng 2,4, but keep the foot on 1. That feeling is the key. Just increase the speed until you can't keep the beat any longer. That is your max. The speed of bulerias would be like 100-140 bpm, the click is only on 1, but you clap 2,4. If you get another clapper, they could do 1,3 to help, but you both lock in on "1".

You should also be able to do 6 per beat. 1,2,3,4,5,6. Foot or click on 1 only. Clap 2,4,6. Those are countra's. This would be slower tempo of course, than the 4's above.

In all cases, the idea of the claps is not to get "in between", but to be felt in relation to the beat, and sound perfectly even relative to each other.



sonikete -> RE: How to clap (palmas) ? (Dec. 9 2006 6:32:23)

The thing is also to enjoy it and make music out of it, ive seen so many beginning dancers clap as if they lost the natural sense of groove they usually have in nonflamenco stuff and was doing it like a military drill or something.

I dont know if thats a scandinavian thing...[:D]



prince of cats -> RE: How to clap (palmas) ? (Dec. 19 2006 14:19:39)

Having benefited from Ricardo's extensive palmas experience I would have to second all of his recommendations. Metronome is absolutely essential. If you don't have a memorized basis built around the correct and regular intervals of sound you will never know what the "right" sound is. Otherwise I would add something else Ricardo is well aware of, but did not mention: you also have to focus on clarity and regularity in the sound itself. Otherwise, one begins to engage in "hand spanking" which - while certainly an exciting indoor sport - has little or nothing to do with palmas.



sonikete -> RE: How to clap (palmas) ? (Dec. 19 2006 15:09:53)

quote:

Metronome is absolutely essential.


I would think that doing palmas with others who do it well would be more important, ive never used a metronome and none of the dancers, singers or guitarists i know either.

There is a lot going on in the accents that a metronome-like compas wouldnt have.

Of course if you want to get precision in very fast contratiempo, there might be a point in rehearsing that, but thats also a lot more fun to do with other people.

Im not knocking it as a teaching method and it might work just fine as that, but its not essential, at least not in my opinion.



Ricardo -> RE: How to clap (palmas) ? (Dec. 19 2006 18:04:31)

quote:

There is a lot going on in the accents that a metronome-like compas wouldnt have.


Like dragging or rushing? If you can't clap to a metronome, how are you going to clap with good palmeros without making them annoyed with your "popcorn" sound? Perhaps over time you would "get it", but how much time? Of course, the idea is again to jump in and be part of a juerga, but "when" can someone call themselves a "palmero"? Just like the flamenco guitarist question.

I have met people who knew nothing about flamenco and were not musicians, but had rhythm and could easily do palmas. That rare breed, sure, they don't need any metronome help. But the rest need a reference. You can learn palmas with other people, but I have seen a difference in what people think is "good palmas" versus what I think. Metronome sort of ends the arguement, if you get my meaning, and can be done at home without any dirty looks. Learning with others can be the hard way, for all involved. In Spain, or a flamenco environment specifically, young people grow up with it. It is like training with a metronome. And for the record, my friend snuck a peak inside Paco de Lucia's guitar case, and saw a metronome in there. So not essential for all, but useful even for those that DON'T need it. [;)] So nothing wrong with emphasizing the importance with words like "essential".

Ricardo



sonikete -> RE: How to clap (palmas) ? (Dec. 19 2006 18:56:32)

quote:


Like dragging or rushing?


No i meant accents, like loud and soft. And of course, if you couldnt do it to a metronome you wouldnt be able to clap with others either.

But i dont know if one of these alternatives is a lot better than the other. Personally i would prefer doing it together with real people.

Im not knocking metronome practice at all, when it comes to practicing fast scales, arpegios or fast contra clapping.

But its like the discussion about making bulerias "swing" just because you can clap in an exact metronomic way doesnt mean that you can also do it in a more organic groovy way.

But it probably is different levels, first learn to clap in time with a metronome, then with others then finally make music out of it.



Ricardo -> RE: How to clap (palmas) ? (Dec. 19 2006 19:20:44)

quote:

But it probably is different levels, first learn to clap in time with a metronome, then with others then finally make music out of it.


Yeah that is all I am saying man. And just to clearify, "metronome practice" does not mean one must play robotic with no dynamic. It is just a steady tempo reference. You learn to control dynamics by keeping the rhythm steady, the metronome helps. Accenting, or getting louder, does not mean faster. Most people make that mistake. Also, I think of "swing" as the fun you have controlling the spaces between the beats, not the beat itself. If I am the on time "tiempo" clapper, I don't adjust to the "contra" if he is a little late, or swinging. I have the responsibility to keep that beat steady. Both roles can be learned with a metronome. But before we revist old issues, I will stop there.

Ricardo



sonikete -> RE: How to clap (palmas) ? (Dec. 19 2006 19:22:24)

Well, me too cause i agree totally [:D]



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