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Ricardo -> RE: I'm not white... (Nov. 29 2006 15:42:48)
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Flamenco is very polyrhythmic, but it depends on what is happening. When the foot is going one way (in 3 say) and the music is going another way (2 or 6/8), then the polyrhythm is obvious, visually. But sound wise you might not notice. That is why it is important to have percussion give a reference. A lot of synchopated modern flamenco stuff is better served to a percussion back up. That is why they love having cajon nowadays instead of just straight palmas or nothing. I like palmas for both modern and traditional.
The other thing you mention, irrational rhythm, is a more specific thing that CAN happen in flamenco, but does not affect the basic idea of the compas. For example, when a dancer changes the feet from duple to triple time, but the tempo stays the same. It is really more noticeable when modern flamenco guitarists play bulerias and do that slow quarter note triplet across the bar line. Tomatito does it often, Vicente sometimes, and Manolo Sanlucar quite often in "Tercio de Vara". What happens is it sounds like the guitar is slowing down suddenly, but the rhythm behind keeps going. Also the switching feels against the pulse is a big part of Tanguillo rhythm.
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Isn't this just asking if his syncopation is behind or ahead of the pulse?
No. I am sorry but my question WAS a bit tongue in cheek, even though I wanted to hear answers. I was refering to some other discussion that was going on regarding MICROTIMING. That is not supposed to be synchoption (counter time rhythms), just a fancy name for deliberate but very SLIGHT rushing or dragging the time to give a desired feeling. The synchopation you talk about IS important for doing similar feeling things (like Ron talked about, where they demonstrated singing on the beat verses off the beat). My point of asking was to see how others were percieving Moraito's style and the "jerez" groove, which most folks seem to think is laid back or slightly behind the beat (not synchopated after the beat).
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Furthermore, just to prevent anyone from getting away with yes or no answers, I'll ask about guitars accompanying guitars. Both guitars are generally playing in the same key, but in different octaves (usually one with a capo). And at least one of them is either chasing or anticipating the pulse, in contrast to the other guitarist (at least when they are playing the same notes, that is).
Is that correct?
I can't stand when I am soloing and I am getting "chased" by the accompanying rhythm guitarist. It feels awful. The pulse is a feeling and has to be steady. If I am not getting that from a rhythm guitarist, or percussionist, then I will prefer to have a drum machine going. A good dancer would feel the same. When tempo changes occur DELIBERATELY, then everyone involved has to be real careful and listen to the leader.
In regards to Microtiming as described earlier, I find that the leader or soloist, that has a rhythm backing that is a little behind or a little ahead, will want to keep what they are doing tight. If my rhythm section is too "laid back", I sense the whole thing dragging down. I will play ON TOP of the beat to compensate and keep it up if I can. Does not always work, and I hate the feeling of having to do that. Likewise, a big problem in slow flamenco dances is the group speeds up a little because they are on top of the beat, and the dancer will mark a little late, in hopes of keeping everyone grounded. The leader has to do it carefully so as not to imply a countra after the beat rhythm. Ideally, everyone keeps a steady pulse until a signal to change speeds if given.
It is the whole purpose of constantly practicing with the metronome.
Ricardo
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