Back to basics, again (Full Version)

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Escribano -> Back to basics, again (Dec. 14 2003 19:41:07)

My arpeggios suck on the return triplet, back down the scale. My ras is not progressing so I am back to basics. On the ras, I have been trying with two fingers only, i and m.

Have you tried a continuous m-i-i ras? It's exasperating but I am sure if I crack it, it will help me with the others which allow each finger a little more time to get back the start position.

Herrero does a killer 2 finger ras and rests his thumb on the 4th string for a ras on strings 1,2&3, the 5th string for 1,2,3 and 4 and the 6th string for 1,2,3,4,5. This stops the lowest strings sounding. Anyone else do this?



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Back to basics, again (Dec. 14 2003 20:27:42)

Have you gotten the marote p m p triplet ras down yet? I had a class with Pedro Cortez, a great player here in the States, and he pretty much had me using that for everything! The kind of flamenco he plays is high volume stuff. You beat up the guitar!



Escribano -> RE: Back to basics, again (Dec. 14 2003 21:18:44)

quote:

Have you gotten the marote p m p triplet ras down yet?

Do you mean p up - m down - p down? Yeah, no problem, just need to be able to switch in and out of it quickly which can be a challenge when the thumb is up past your right ear[:D]

Still have a problem with the Granados p up- x down - i down - p up. I keep putting an extra p down before p up. He uses it for the Tangos, whilst Herrero uses a more trad. ras. Phil has encouraged me to stick with it to sound for Jerez. Pinkie is good!

You know my trusty Guitar Mute is the trick here, I can go over and over the movements while watching tv and then go back to the guitar. Recommend one to anybody.

Today has been exceptional, about 5 hours of ras and arperggios for a rest. Looking forward to two weeks off work over Christmas.



Thomas Whiteley -> RE: Back to basics, again (Dec. 14 2003 21:35:54)

Two other triplets that are fun to use are:

1. Sabicas p – A – I (my favorite!)
2. PDL p – m (little finger) – I

Each has a different sound and finds a use in your bag of tricks.



Escribano -> RE: Back to basics, again (Dec. 14 2003 21:50:14)

quote:

1. Sabicas p – A – I (my favorite!)


But they are triplets right? My keeps hitting the strings on the way back down and turning into 4 strikes. The p is always up except for p-m-p right?



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Back to basics, again (Dec. 14 2003 22:47:50)

It's funny, the p a i Tom mentions as from Sabicas was taught to Miguel Rodriguez one of my teahers, by Paco's brother!



Phil -> RE: Back to basics, again (Dec. 14 2003 23:52:17)

quote:

Still have a problem with the Granados p up- x down - i down - p up. I keep putting an extra p down before p up. He uses it for the Tangos, whilst Herrero uses a more trad. ras. Phil has encouraged me to stick with it to sound for Jerez. Pinkie is good!

Simon,
You must have me confused with someone else. I might have mentioned that, in his video, Merengue de Cordoba uses a p(up)-x(down)-p(down). Maybe that's where saw me mention something about the pinky. In Jerez the most common triplet that I've seen is p(up)- m(down) - p(down). It can be used anyplace, once you've developed it. I'm finally getting mine to where I'm happy with it. My teacher's son also uses a p(up)-m(down)-i(down), which is extremely awkward to me, but you might give it a try. My teacher seems to use only the p-m-p and a,m,i,i and he uses them interchangeably. Although, it's hard to tell by watching someone play exactly which fingers they're using unless they show you. If you develop those 2 rasgeados really well you may never need any others. If you have a problem with your pinky being weak from an injury, don't worry about it. A lot of guitarists don't even use their right pinky. It doesn't appear to me that Moraito uses it, for example. I've noticed from watching a variety of guitarists that they seem to use just 2 or 3 rasgeados patterns. They may be 100's of permutations, but you only need 2 or 3 well developed ones.
Phil



Thomas Whiteley -> RE: Back to basics, again (Dec. 15 2003 1:16:50)

Yes the pulgar is up at the start. Also, the P -M - P begins with the pulgar is up.

For the Sabicas triplet one approach is to place the hand in a relazed position. Space the fingers in a comfortable wayand equaly from each other.

Pulgar up, Anular down followed by Medio down, and repeat. The wrist should be straight. You rotate the wrist. This is good for dancers as it is loud.

The PDL triplet is good for solo guitar as it is softer (not as loud). If you go slow and play with an even tempo you should get it.

Any problems with technique - just come see me! [:D]



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Back to basics, again (Dec. 15 2003 2:41:10)

Oh yeah, Tom, I'll take you up on that. Any general ideas on how to get my left hand chord changes and barres easier and cleaner?



Jon Boyes -> RE: Back to basics, again (Dec. 15 2003 12:01:12)

As you guys know, I have a finger co-ordination problem which constricts conventional ras, I can't do much with any of the normal finger-generated ones CAMI, AMII etc.

However, I can do the the 'wrist-generated' ras: I use P-IM-P for triplets (actually P up, then IM down with IM welded together if you see what I mean, then P down).

..and I'm now finding some other solutions using the same wrist movement eg. CIP, all down, for a three stroke ras alternative to AMI, and CIPP for a four stroke (with the last P being an upstroke), or PCIP starting it with a P upstroke.

My continous roll based on this sequence is not very good though, far too uneven at the moment: P(up)C(down)I(down)P(down) PCIPPCIP etc.

When I get my studio set back up, I want to post some of this to get some feedback.

Jon



Escribano -> RE: Back to basics, again (Dec. 15 2003 18:51:02)

quote:

Any general ideas on how to get my left hand chord changes and barres easier and cleaner?


Now, there I can help you, I have been "barre"ing for years. The trick it to practise [:D] Try it on an electric guitar with lower action for 10 years or so, though seriously, practising this way would build up your forefinger and forearm muscles. Don't ever hold it too long - stop when it hurts



Paleto -> RE: Back to basics, again (Dec. 15 2003 21:32:59)

Miguel,

About an hour ago, I posted a link to a book about jazz in the resources section. Not far into the book, the author has a good suggestion for praticing chord transitions.

Read that.

I also have a barre problem in the Nuñez alegrías I have been working on for ages now. It's a full barre at the 9th fret and I don't seem to be able to get it clean, there's a little noise mostly from the G string (it's not getting fretted well enough). I asked on the Google classical guitar newsgroup and the main response was to tilt my hand toward the left a little. That helps sometimes, but not too much at that position.

Anyone here have a suggestion?

Anthony



Thomas Whiteley -> RE: Back to basics, again (Dec. 15 2003 22:52:47)

Anthony;

I would have to see what you are doing. With a good guitar I have no problem with barred chords. However, with a cheap guitar I tend to tilt my left hand (indice) very slightly inward or towards the right. Also be sure you are close to the "top" of the fret! Otherwise you will produce a warm fuzzy sound which many not be the note you intened! [:D]

You have to discover what works for you - that is the greatest secret!



Thomas Whiteley -> RE: Back to basics, again (Dec. 15 2003 22:53:41)

It is hard to put in words but see what I posted to Anthony.



Paleto -> RE: Back to basics, again (Dec. 15 2003 23:00:42)

I have pretty good guitar, a Plazuelo. If you haven't heard of him, he's a Granada maker, works in his uncles shop - Antonio Marin Montero.

This particular one sounds really good, of course that means nothing until you've played it.

I have a friend with a good $9,000 Rodriguez, built by Rodriguez himself, the Cordoba Rodriguez and my guitar sounds really great in the same room. I am not too concerned about having a cheap guitar, I am rather sure I have a pretty good one. It could be adjusted to lower the action a little though. That may make it easier.

I always thought it was because the soft part of my index finger between the distal and proximal interphalangeal joints was perhaps causing the strings passing under it to be less well fretted. But there must be a solution....

Anthony



Paleto -> RE: Back to basics, again (Dec. 15 2003 23:08:16)

Simon,

The m,i,i is a tough one. I have been playing around with it. Tough to get them even, they are too close together.

Do you just stay slow, with a metronome, say 60 bpm, to get them even? Be sure to try duplets, triplets and quadruplets, even quintuplets, that way you teach yourself good control of each finger. Also, do they strike the strings relatively perpendicular to the strings? Or somewhat across as well as down?

Seems like if you approached it as above, should work after several days practicing slowly with a metronome...

Could your posture, seat or fingernails be causing a problem?

Anthony



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