ToddK's pick technique (Full Version)

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TANúñez -> ToddK's pick technique (Dec. 14 2003 13:25:18)

Here's a cool video of ToddK's pick techinique with closeup shot of his right hand.

http://www.e-borneo.com/ab/posts/29306.html



Escribano -> RE: ToddK's pick technique (Dec. 14 2003 13:49:10)

So now we know, very interesting.

IMHO Flamenco playing is about efficiency and economy of movement. Todd's tremelo, from a technique point of view alone, appears to use the pick instead of p and i.

That's a lot of distance to cover and must get in the way of some pieces, whereas it is only my lack of ability that gets in the way for me[:D]

Anyone spot any other penalties with this technique or any pros to it? I guess all thumb work and picado become more straightforward?

Caveat: I am only critiqueing the technique here, not Todd.



Miguel de Maria -> RE: ToddK's pick technique (Dec. 14 2003 15:14:38)

There are lots of ways to skin a cat. My partner plays with a pick and it's interesting to note his strengths and limitations--although he's never really tried to play fingerstyle with it. Arpeggios are difficult, although possible, tremolo the same. Alzapua and scale passages easier by several degrees. As long as someone can use their pinky, they have the same number of appendages, right? Then it's just a matter of practicing the movement. Movements do not have to be optimized in order to work. For example, although fingerstyle players could play tremolo faster than Todd... probably there's no need to, the repertoire doesn't call for it. This is why lots of virtuosos don't have "textbook" technique. They have gotten their way of doing it to the point where it is as good as it needs to be. Whether if they had used a more conventional way to do it they could do it better is, basically, irrelevant. The only thing I can really say is that I don't like the sound of pick for flamenco. I started off in this Latin guitar thing playing pick, and switched to fingers because I didn't like the sound. Plus I hated carrying picks in my wallet! :)



Escribano -> RE: ToddK's pick technique (Dec. 14 2003 15:47:55)

quote:

Movements do not have to be optimized in order to work


Doesn't sound like you, Michael. Perhaps you might mean "movements do not have to be optimized in order to work well"?

I take your point about the tremelo but which ever way you look at it, holding a pick takes one digit out of the circulation. I don't have strong feelings about this, but it does seem less than optimal when you have all five to start with. The Django Reinhardt argument only works if you don't have the complete set to play with.

On that note - have a look a this http://www.hotclub.co.uk/html/zen.html I like the bit about playing past the mistake otherwise it becomes a hurdle - how true for me, it stops me dead.

I am determined to use all my fingers on the right hand, at least until I can choose my own style rather than force a soft limit on myself. My a and x are very weak as I severed both these tendons in a childhood accident, I want to overcome this "weakness" - call it bloody minded but I like guitarists who can use the full set when they want to. There is nothing so beautiful to behold as Tomatito executing a fully loaded ras.



Thomas Whiteley -> RE: ToddK's pick technique (Dec. 14 2003 15:59:00)

A very nice article!



Guest -> RE: ToddK's pick technique (Dec. 15 2003 16:48:52)

Miguel, The reason you're not getting the right tone from the pick, is because you're using
the wrong pick. You have to use a nylon pick, about 1.30mm thickness.
And you have to cut it to a specific shape. In addition you also have to cut divets
near the tip, to get the "side of the thumb" tone.

Its obvious in the video and my recordings that there is no difference between
the sound of the pick and the sound of my nails. However, this takes a long time
to achieve. I never planned all this out. It just happened over the course of about
10 years. Due to playing many different styles, most of them requiring a pick.

Oh, and i can do tremelo twice as fast as in the video. I slowed it down because the
object of the video was to demo the technique, and not to show off speed.
I can easily match or surpass any conventional flamenco player in speed.
Cheers Miguel!!:)
Toddk



Miguel de Maria -> RE: ToddK's pick technique (Dec. 15 2003 18:29:16)

Todd,
you play real well man... but picado and pick sound different. That doesn't have to be a criticism, it's just an observation. And what I said about the tremolo is that it doesn't matter which technique is better--if both techniques can achieve the requirements of the idiom, they both suffice. Now if you're telling me that you can pick a bass note and then switch an inch and a half down to pick a treble note faster than a normal player can play a bass note with his thumb and then hit an i finger positioned a mm away, well... that just doesn't make any sense to me. But if both styles are sufficient to play Recuerdos or Sabicas speed falsetas, it really doesn't matter, does it? On the other hand, thanks for the info about the picks. The other night I was playing outside and it was about 50 degrees outside...now in this situation, pick is definitely better than picado! Try playing sixteenth note runs with two icicles and you'll see what I mean.

Simon,
man, thanks for the link to the Django website. I had never taken the time to become acquainted, even passingly, with this man. Now that I'm starting to get into improv sounds like he's a must listen. Did you see that chromatic lick they have tabbed out? You use your second finger to fret notes from the fifth to the fifteenth. That's wicked.



Escribano -> RE: ToddK's pick technique (Dec. 15 2003 19:12:33)

It's funny, I hate jazz, apart from Miles Davis and I loathe flamenco jazz improvisation - doesn't seem any point to it. Flamenco is so much prettier and there is so much to learn[:D]



Guest -> RE: ToddK's pick technique (Dec. 15 2003 19:25:52)

Pick and picado sound different"

99 percent of the time, yes they do. But not the way i pick.
The way i use the pick sounds identical to finger picado.

I've had countless people ask me how i worked up such a fast picado,
and i tell them "with a pick" They usually dont believe me.
Thats why i tend to post videos from time to time containing different techs.

I am able to perform true "picado", that is, each note stops, before the next one
starts. The way pickers try to emmulate this is by muting the strings.
That adds definition, but it doesnt sound anything like finger picado.
What i am able to do is, pick lines with the stop between notes.
How do i do this? Well, i guess i'm going to have to make another demo.
Its too hard to explain. It took me a LONG time.

And your question about playing the six string and moving an inch and a half down
to pick a high string?
Well, thats easy, i use M and A just like you use I and M.
I simply pick the bass note, and finger the high note just like you do. I can alternate
between the pick and M or A freely in the middle of a line or argegio.
Would you like to see video of this? I'd be happy to post it.
I'm a little baffled as to how you didnt catch this in the video Zurdo posted here.
I'm clearly alternating between pick and fingers in the arpegios.

I'd like to say that, if it seems im trying to start a battle, i apologize. I'm getting
weary of always having to explain or prove my self. Well, its probably self induced.:) That's not what
making music is about. And i'm sorry if this comes across as aggresive in any way.
You know how it is when you work very hard, and people are sometimes quick to
dismiss you. The purism surrounding flamenco makes it even harder.
It doesnt change what i'm doing, but its discouraging nonetheless.
My best to you Miguel!:)
Todd (thinskinned)Kreuzburg



Miguel de Maria -> RE: ToddK's pick technique (Dec. 15 2003 19:33:26)

Todd,
you know, because of my having a Mac, I didn't get to see the video, sounds like I misunderstood the technique. The way you describe it, makes a lot more sense. Sounds like you've invested a lot of time in your pick/picado... that's good stuff. I love when I see other musicians who take their art so seriously, as you obviously do. Anyways, about the other stuff, you're an excellent player, Todd, you don't have to explain yourself. I agree with you 100%, playing is playing, doesn't matter how you do it. You know, whenever someone says a negative thing, 90% of the time their negative comment actually expresses their own insecurity. They're just vocalizing their own problems. Good luck on everything.



Guest -> RE: ToddK's pick technique (Dec. 15 2003 20:00:53)

Ah, the beloved Macintosh!! Yeah, that explains it.

I was really scratching my head trying to figure out how you could have
thought what you thought after viewing the video!
Now i understand!!![8D]

I agree with you fully!!! Its all about the result, and not so much how you're getting
that result.
Thanks for the interesting debate! I hope maybe you can post some of your
playing sometime. Something tells me you're probably an excellent player.
Instinct i guess.
Its usually the soft spoken humble guys like yourself who are the real motherf!ckers!
Best regards,
Todd K



Guest -> RE: ToddK's pick technique (Dec. 15 2003 20:09:32)

Hey Miguel, i dont mean to push this issue, but i thought what i'd do is
post this MP3 of an Alegrias falsetta i wrote recently.

Maybe you could tell me what you think? And, listen closely to the "Pick" "ado"
at the end. Does it not sound like finger picado?

http://djmichaelk.com/todd/toddmp3/alegrias.mp3

Thanks Miguel!!



Florian -> RE: ToddK's pick technique (Dec. 15 2003 22:03:26)

I love that Alegria :) I wish i wrote it :)



Patrick -> RE: ToddK's pick technique (Dec. 15 2003 22:17:56)

quote:

I love that Alegria :) I wish i wrote it :)


I wish I could play it!

And no Todd, it doesn't sound like I M picado. It sound better!



Florian -> RE: ToddK's pick technique (Dec. 15 2003 22:27:35)

Sounds as good as any other cd youd ever find at Flamenco World, btw greate SOund !!! what is your setup ?

I have figured out what your strength is Tod :) besides fast scales etc. is perfect timing and phrasing, u have the quite spaces in your melodyes figured it out perfect.

Hey when am i gonna hear the rest of this Alegria ? this is the one u composed isnt it ?



Guest -> RE: ToddK's pick technique (Dec. 15 2003 22:43:02)

Yeah, this is the first Alegrias falsetta i've ever written.
I have a few more now. Its just a matter of putting it together.

I like to record them individually first, and listen for a while. Its a good way
to chisel them down, so they're musical and to the point.

Your advice helped me alot actually. I got out some cante stuff that i
hadnt listened to in a while, and that gave me tons of ideas.
I'm listening in a different way now. Thanks Florian.
And thanks for the wonderful compliments!!! I love your stuff as well!!:)

Toddk

PS sorry, i've been stumped on what to send you for excercises.
I'll think of something eventually.[8D]



Thomas Whiteley -> RE: ToddK's pick technique (Dec. 15 2003 23:14:37)

I love the music of Miles Davis! So much feeling!



Thomas Whiteley -> RE: ToddK's pick technique (Dec. 15 2003 23:20:01)

quote:

Django
I have several video tapes of Djano as well as CD's.


http://www.redhotjazz.com/django.html

Realize that his style and that of many others was created to compensate for physical problems. I think God gave such people a gift.



Miguel de Maria -> RE: ToddK's pick technique (Dec. 15 2003 23:35:24)

Todd,
you're right, that sounds like finger picado. If I didn't know you, I wouldn't suspect it were pick. Sweet playing. Is the rest of the band synth, or are you playing bass, etc., on there, too?



Miguel de Maria -> RE: ToddK's pick technique (Dec. 15 2003 23:37:11)

Btw, Todd, my partner is a wonderful pick player, and make sure you let me know if you do demo how you get the "picado" pick sound. I have a feeling he would try it out, probably lots of other people, too. Maybe you can make a lot of money like the guitar principles guy!



Guest -> RE: ToddK's pick technique (Dec. 16 2003 0:06:42)

Yeah, lots of money would be nice!! Practicing all day doesnt make me lots
of money, so maybe a pick/finger DVD would.

I'm going to make another video demo this week, and this time it'll be
my "Pick" ado, and alzapua. Maybe some rasgueado too.

And dont worry, this time i'll make 2 formats of it. One in Windows media,
and one QuickTime.

I'll also convert the current video into QuickTime so you can check it out too.

Be back soon!!
Toddk



Phil -> RE: ToddK's pick technique (Dec. 16 2003 2:03:04)

Todd,
I'm one of those guys that you would probably label a purist [:o], although that's not entirely true. I have to say that that was one hell of a good Alegrias. Not only technique-wise and melody-wise, but it's clearly identifiable as an Alegrias. One of my big criticisms of many modern Flamenco soloists is that it's often very difficult to identify the palo they are playing, because they stray so extremely far from the traditional structure of the palos. Your technique may be iconoclastic, but you playing isn't. However, I will make one minor criticism.[;)] I've always hated the sound of the bass that Carlos Benavent introduced years ago with Paco de Lucia.[:'(] I'd really love to hear this Alegrias without the bass.
Phil

PS. Any chance that you have this tabbed?



Guest -> RE: ToddK's pick technique (Dec. 16 2003 6:24:14)

Hey Phil, thanks for the encouraging words!!
I agree about the modern players straying too far from the form.
I still listen to Sabicas, Nino Ricardo, Serranito alot, i'm still very much
obsessed with 50's and 60's flamenco. I want to try to do the newer style
alegria, but with the sensability of the old school players. Sabicas is my hero!

And, yes, i hear similar comments about the Benevant bass tone. I guess that
just comes down to taste. Sometimes im not sure if i do the bass stuff because
i like it, or because i think its what people want to hear in the new style.
Luckily, its very easy to remix it, and simply mute the bass out.[:@]


I use a program called Guitar Pro 3, to tab material out. I can send you
a Guitar Pro 3 file, or i can also export the file as Standard Midi File.
Can you work with either of those?
If not, let me know what i could do to get you the tab.
I will eventually complete this alegrias, and when i do, you can have the
whole thing in tab.
Let me say again, i'm extremely pleased that someone like yourself, who's on
the purist side of things, so to speak, enjoys what i'm doing with flamenco forms.
That's extremly good for my confidence as a player. It fuels my creativity when
i know real deal flamenco lovers enjoy my stuff.
Let me know about the tab thing, ok. My email address is below this message.
Todd Kreuzburg
toddk@comcast.net



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