Pumping Nylon? (Full Version)

Foro Flamenco: http://www.foroflamenco.com/
- Discussions: http://www.foroflamenco.com/default.asp?catApp=0
- - General: http://www.foroflamenco.com/in_forum.asp?forumid=13
- - - Pumping Nylon?: http://www.foroflamenco.com/fb.asp?m=49519



Message

DoctorX2k2 -> Pumping Nylon? (Nov. 23 2006 0:26:01)

Hello again,

I'm considering buying this book/DVD package mainly for the exercises to build hand strength and proprioception but I'm also interesting in its technique. Since it's about classical guitar, I'm wondering if this would be a good idea or if the techniques mentionned in this book aren't fit for flamenco.

Any inputs?

Best regards



Jon Boyes -> RE: Pumping Nylon? (Nov. 23 2006 8:14:24)

Its an excellent idea. there are things that can be ignored as they relate as you say to RH classical technique, BUT...

-great section on slurs and how to get them snappy

-excelllent section on building speed into your picado runs

-the whole planting thing - how to get your arpeggios fast and crisp

Basically, no bull and no ten page thesis on a tech like you get in some CG books. Just some tried and tested exercises and principles that really work.

BTW its not really about building 'hand strength'. The title was supposed to be a joke.



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Pumping Nylon? (Nov. 23 2006 15:31:51)

You can build plenty of hand strength, such as it is, by playing repertoire and scales. There's a danger in messing around with exercises too much; I spent 2 years on mostly exercises and it did me little good. It's a useful book, for sure, as far as it goes.



fevictor -> RE: Pumping Nylon? (Nov. 23 2006 18:24:08)

Miguel,

How do you know that it did you little good? Was it that you werent practising properly the scales or techniques, or do you think that technique, clarity, speed, timing, and all aspects of practise should be learned thru falsetas?

I ask this because I am on this path right now...I am trying to work on getting the techniques mastered, or at least comfortable, before continuing to work on new palos and more complicated falstetas.

There seems to be a lot of different ideas on how to practise. I have taken the advice of always playing with the metronome and giving my full attention to the task at hand, regardlessof how simple the excersise may be. My guitar teacher recommends to master the techniques, then when you want to play music you just add the notes to what you can already play.

There seems to be alot of people here who say that they wasted a lot of years doing things that they would never do again knowing what they know now. So, whos right???

So the question basically is this: What is the best way to master all of the techniques if you shouldnt devote too much time to practising them?

Vic



Reece -> RE: Pumping Nylon? (Nov. 23 2006 18:56:30)

My advice is to just play. Concentrate on using your time wisely, but don't worry too much about the "right" and "wrong" way to practice. The most important thing is that you know yourself well - you have to figure out the best way for YOU to learn.



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Pumping Nylon? (Nov. 23 2006 19:23:03)

Victor,
I spent about two years doing several hours a day at scales and "Kitharalogus" type of things. Did I get better at those exercises, sure. Did I get the scales fast...to some degree, yes, I could sloppily play some long scales at 16th notes at 170 or so. Did I progress as quickly as I should have? No, I don't think so.

We are playing music here, and it's really hard to get better at music without playing music. I am not saying this in some kind of New Agey way, I am not talking about "expressing yourself" I am talking about the actual physiological act of playing guitar. I think that we learn best when we are actively using our ears and minds to actuate an idea. I also think that music works best for this.

I have benefited greatly from listening to the guitarists on this board who are much further along than me (there are many of them). Not one of them suggested even in the slightest that zonking out on exercises hours a day is the key to learning. What I have picked up is that you play music, you do it with awareness and precision and curiosity and fun and rhythm.

Rather than play those scales and exercises, I shoudl have been taking music at a lower level, taking a metronome or compas, and isolating measures or compases and just making them sing. Not rushing too much, just taking time with it and making it sound and feel right. I think if I had done that, I would be much further along now than I am.

In my opinion, you might want to spend 10% of your total practice time on exercises.



DoctorX2k2 -> RE: Pumping Nylon? (Nov. 23 2006 21:14:00)

Well thanks for the replies!

Though, I'd like to say that I really needed some exercise to improve my technique. As you know, I'm a newb at guitar and not just flamenco. I went through Graf-Martinez vol. 1 without much difficulty (relatively to what's coming in vol. 2). Now I'm stuck on the arpeggio lessons because I can't even play the slower versions of the soleas when I see a pimami sextuplet. I've been trying to gain speed but something just feels wrong with my technique. That's when I read about sequential planting on GSI and heard about Pumping Nylon. I think exercises should take a great part of a practice session and I expect to spend at least 30mins to 1 hour a day doing only exercises, then practice falsetas and solos.

I just built myself a good collection of flamenco methods and transcriptions including :
-Graf-Martinez vol. 1 and 2 books/DVDs
- Juan Martin El Arte de la Guitarra Flamenca vol 1.
-Oscar Herrero Paso a Paso vol 1 to 9
-Manuel Granados didactic methods vol 1 to 4
-Manuel Granados guitar technical studies
-La Guitarra Flamenco series with Gerado Nunez, Enriche de Melchor, Pepe Habichuela and Merengue de Cordoba 1 and 2.


And I plan going through all of this stuff, even if it takes me 15 years.



Jon Boyes -> RE: Pumping Nylon? (Nov. 24 2006 9:57:53)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DoctorX2k2
I think exercises should take a great part of a practice session and I expect to spend at least 30mins to 1 hour a day doing only exercises, then practice falsetas and solos.


If you are smart, you will adopt the principles of the exercises in Pumping Nylon INTO your falsetas and solos. Why waste time on pulgar 'exercises' for example, if you can play a good pulgar falseta? Read what Reece and Mike said.

If you spend too much time on exercises you become good at exercises - make sure you spend time getting good at making music.

Exercises are like a toolbox. Good for fixing things.



Ricardo -> RE: Pumping Nylon? (Nov. 24 2006 22:58:32)

I say forget the Pumping Nylon book, but certainly get your hands on the VIDEO if you can. It is real helpful, even to flamencos. Of course the guy has the wrong tone for flamenco, but his advice on everything from nail shape to tremolo, picado, arpegios, etc, is fine for the flamenco player. I always refer students and friends to that vid. Oh, the one thing is his advice about rasgueado you can sort of ignore IMO. And one thing he said about "clawing" at the strings, is in fact a legit type of flamenco technique, sort of. But that is what I mean about his tone not being right for flamenco.

As other's said, don't get stuck on exercises, but rather learn how to apply even classical guitar ideas, to YOUR music or the music you are working on. In other words, apply the arpegio advice to your solea.[;)]

Ricardo



DoctorX2k2 -> RE: Pumping Nylon? (Nov. 25 2006 1:26:12)

Alright, thanks for the advices.

I got this book/DVD package on its way. I'll try to incorporate the exercises into falsetas, even though I feel sometimes it's good to get technique down so you can focus on chords, rythm and general feel. Right now I'm kinda stuck with this solea from Graf-Martinez book because I can't do the sextuplets arpeggios, even at the slower version... and most subsequent lessons incorporate pression lessons technique so I'll have to do exercises until I get past this problem. Or, maybe I should just try this Manuel Granados book I have : Estudio Tecnico de la guitarra flamenca. Its structure seems to encompass graded exercises. But then again, I'm not even sure I have the right arpeggio technique so I guess I'll wait next week-end, figure out the proper way to do arpeggios then use Granados's exercises and studies.



fevictor -> RE: Pumping Nylon? (Nov. 25 2006 3:51:14)

I dont want to beat a dead horse here, but I also remember reading in more than one post here that people like Paco got good by, amongst other things, practising scales. Now, is this true? Or do scales fall into the same category as excersises? This morning I was doing pulgar practise working scales up and down the neck, but with a metronome. Because I felt in tune with the metronome, the scales seemed to sound quite musical and I put my own flavour into them to sound more like music and not just dry scales. I even got some good ideas for basic ways to modify some falsetas I already know.

So, was I playing music or practising pulgar work and scales?



Exitao -> RE: Pumping Nylon? (Nov. 25 2006 3:56:07)

Hey! Let me get a wack in on that horse! I seem to recall reading that (knowledge of) scales were important when it came to improvisation and even composition. Is that wrong?



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Pumping Nylon? (Nov. 25 2006 4:54:10)

It's funny because when I was starting out I had a fixed idea of how things worked, and I didn't really listen to the people who were ahead of me. I had to figure it out myself through trial and error. The error included wasting about two years on exercises, which also led to an injured middle finger which cost me a full year of practice. I will reiterate that I think you should spend about 10% of your time on excerises, no more.

The reason exercises are such a sweet trap is that it allows you to mindlessly move your fingers for hours without engaging your brain or ears, yet fooling yourself into thinking you are doing a good job and helping yourself out. This leads you to bad habits and can teach you to ignore your sensory feedback by dulling it through repetition. If you are practicing without actively engaging your ears and mind, then you are most likely wasting your time and grooving in bad habits. It is especially dangerous to someone like me, who has a poor span of attention. I found it easy to zone out for hours while practicing scales and arpeggios.

If you want to play the sextuplets in solea, then why not take those sextuplets and isolate them and work on them? Just use what is in the music and break it down. It almost goes without saying that you probably shouldn't be able to do the sextuplet figures unless you are already proficient at the sixteenth note or triplet figures. You have to know arithmetic before algebra, right? And don't you need algebra for calc?

To me, the consensus is pretty clear about how to proceed. On this thread alone, there has been some good advice for free that would normally cost $ to get. Save yourself the pain and aggravation and wasted years that I went through by choosing the wrong path, and listen to what Jon and Ricardo say. Play music and use the exercises as specific solutions to problems which you have isolated and identified as needing them.



Guest -> [Deleted] (Nov. 25 2006 5:07:18)

[Deleted by Admins]



DoctorX2k2 -> RE: Pumping Nylon? (Nov. 25 2006 14:12:00)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria

If you want to play the sextuplets in solea, then why not take those sextuplets and isolate them and work on them? Just use what is in the music and break it down. It almost goes without saying that you probably shouldn't be able to do the sextuplet figures unless you are already proficient at the sixteenth note or triplet figures. You have to know arithmetic before algebra, right? And don't you need algebra for calc?




Been there, done that... I can play triplets no problem... it's just the ascending part of the arpeggio sextuplets (the mi in pimami) that I can't do in time and I think the problem revolves around me planting technique or hand position... I tried to isolate and practice for a few weeks without improvement, I'm probably not even practicing the right way. Once I get a good idea of the correct way to do things, I'll follow your advice and wont spend much time on exercises.


Romerito, of course I'd like to become a decent player, although I don't have 3 hours to spend everyday du to the fact that I'm studying medicine. I'm taking an optional class outside my program just for fun this semester, it's called Motor learning and movement analysis, it's in the Kinesiology department. Time spent learning something is juste one variable among many others that influences performances and learning.

The tricky part is finding the right way to practice guitar playing, which is an open movement into a stable environment. From what I've learned so far in the class (not over yet), Miguel would be right not to spend too much time on exercises. Exercises do increase specific performances while you're doing it, but when doing a retention test (to see if one has learned properly), the effect of a simple exercise aren't nearly as good as a complex exercises incorporating what we could call "interferences" such as rythm, chords and other technique than the one you trying to improve at. Does that mean you shouldn't do exercises? No, but pushing them above everything else doesn't seem correct. There's a disctinction to make between the learning curve and the performance curve. The studies I had the chance to read weren't intended for guitar players so I can't tell if the concepts would also apply to it, but as far as practicing time is concerned, the more the better. It is better to do 2 X 1 hours than 1 X 2 hours... yet again, time is only one thing among many others influencing learning so I can't tell how this time should be used. If I had a ton of time and access to a lab, I'd try to build a study up and find out, but I don't [:@].



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Pumping Nylon? (Nov. 25 2006 15:01:24)

Doc, I would definitely try full and sequential planting to tackle that problem.

If you aren't already familiar with these terms, the full plant simply means to place the fingers on the strings in a bunch (for example pami) then play them normally p, a, m, i. The sequential plant means place p, play p, place a, play a...etc.

This is in contrast to just playing, without taking the time to place them.

If I were in your situation I would try to make two exercises: plant pima, plant ami, then once they felt very comfortable try to put them together. Take your time and put the fingers in a nice playing position, then play. Maybe use a metronome, plant, play, plant, play. Generally pima is difficult, and ami is easy because of the way the hand works. You may want to check out this online book by a physicist about piano playing: http://members.aol.com/chang8828/contents.htm

I found it useful in thinking about impulses. At speed, the pima is one impulse, and the ami is another.



Guest -> [Deleted] (Nov. 25 2006 15:08:35)

[Deleted by Admins]



Exitao -> RE: Pumping Nylon? (Nov. 25 2006 16:12:41)

From the perspective of a person who has been in workshops on the receiving end of people who use kinesiollogy courses to train atheletics, I've seen that they do use exercieses.

When learning new techniques, or working on problem techniques it was common to practice exercies that were components of the skills to be learned/worked on today. Then we proceeded to the the full technique, returned to exercies, I suppose to exhaust muscles or fibres or whatever, then back to the technique an perform it until exhaustion keeping 100% aware of every little movement nad how to control it through exhaustion, which made the movement much more natural and automatic later when not exhausted.

Now this was fencing, not football. We had to control a 1cm tip approximately 1m/yd away from the handle, keeping movements extremely tight, often moving the tip itself less than 10cm or 5" (it's not like the movies).

In this context, when I say technique, it probably more approximates a falseta, because were' talking about compound attacks etc, involved within are numerous smaller skills.

In this context the exercises are chosen to compliment a specific pattern of movements and ingrain the pattern of movements (and its comonent parts) into muscle memory.

From this perspective I see that everyone is right:
You need your basics.
Speedy players without basics are sloppy.
Poor basics are a terrible foundation for new techniques.
You have to continue past the basics, because without context they're useless.
Whenever learning new falsetas, returning to the component basics is a good warm-up, helps to analyse the patterns and keeps the learned technique clean.
...and reinforces the learning by using association, both intellectually and with muscle memory.

Miguel:
Can I have your Kitharologus book? [8|]



Guest -> [Deleted] (Nov. 25 2006 17:21:01)

[Deleted by Admins]



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Pumping Nylon? (Nov. 25 2006 17:40:02)

I was going to give it to him, but if more people want it I can put it on ebay...



Guest -> [Deleted] (Nov. 25 2006 17:49:36)

[Deleted by Admins]



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Pumping Nylon? (Nov. 25 2006 17:59:03)

I just looked over Kith, thinking, "I don't want to give this away, I might want to pull it out and use it." But as I reviewed it, I realized that I'll never touch it again.

As far as the practicing book, it is excellent.



Guest -> [Deleted] (Nov. 25 2006 18:05:00)

[Deleted by Admins]



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Pumping Nylon? (Nov. 25 2006 18:40:20)

Hey, Rome, I am really into the Effortless Mastery. Thanks for that heads-up. I am trying to do the mediations every day and I am totally buying into it. Thanks!



Ricardo -> RE: Pumping Nylon? (Nov. 25 2006 20:30:51)

quote:

Been there, done that... I can play triplets no problem... it's just the ascending part of the arpeggio sextuplets (the mi in pimami) that I can't do in time and I think the problem revolves around me planting technique or hand position... I tried to isolate and practice for a few weeks without improvement, I'm probably not even practicing the right way. Once I get a good idea of the correct way to do things, I'll follow your advice and wont spend much time on exercises.


I have an exercise over at FT under the lessons called "arpegios", that focuses specifically on this problem. To be fair to others that took that lesson, let me just describe the problem, rather than give you the exact etude I made up. So you have no problem with triplets, imaP, amiP, etc, where you can end with the thumb on the beat, right? So there is a delay when you get from pima--M I, right?

So if you look at the strings there is a problem between the a and m finger mainly (1st to 2nd string). What I did was to make up a piece where the melody moves around on the B string (the m finger) so you focus on the timing of that one note, and STOP on it. Don't play i finger next, leave a rhythmic space there before the thumb plays again. pimaM_, pimaM_, etc each time the M plays you emphasize it and move the melody around. Go slow at first until you get the rhythm. It is still 6 notes rhythmically, but you leave the last note off to emphasis that m finger. Once you can do it fast, you can throw in the i finger and find it is very smooth and easy to do.

Hope this helps.
PS, that is all FREE stroke, tirando, except for "P" which you do rest stroke.

Ricardo



Exitao -> RE: Pumping Nylon? (Nov. 25 2006 21:45:28)

quote:

romerito said:
I am buying another book called "The Art of Practicing" Don't remember the authors name.


Are you talking about The Art of Practicing, or, The Principles of Correct Practice?



DoctorX2k2 -> RE: Pumping Nylon? (Nov. 25 2006 22:48:36)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

I have an exercise over at FT under the lessons called "arpegios", that focuses specifically on this problem. To be fair to others that took that lesson, let me just describe the problem, rather than give you the exact etude I made up. So you have no problem with triplets, imaP, amiP, etc, where you can end with the thumb on the beat, right? So there is a delay when you get from pima--M I, right?

So if you look at the strings there is a problem between the a and m finger mainly (1st to 2nd string). What I did was to make up a piece where the melody moves around on the B string (the m finger) so you focus on the timing of that one note, and STOP on it. Don't play i finger next, leave a rhythmic space there before the thumb plays again. pimaM_, pimaM_, etc each time the M plays you emphasize it and move the melody around. Go slow at first until you get the rhythm. It is still 6 notes rhythmically, but you leave the last note off to emphasis that m finger. Once you can do it fast, you can throw in the i finger and find it is very smooth and easy to do.

Hope this helps.
PS, that is all FREE stroke, tirando, except for "P" which you do rest stroke.

Ricardo


Thanks Ricardo, I'll try this out.

As for your FT lesson, I wanted to buy it but the minimum deposit is 40$ and I don't feel skilled enough for most of the lessons out there according to the previews, plus I already have a tone of stuff to go through so I'm not too willing to leave 35$ there for no apparent reason. Anyways, thanks for your help, it's greatly appreciated.



fevictor -> RE: Pumping Nylon? (Nov. 26 2006 13:44:32)

I actually didn't realize how much was available on the f-t site. Tonight I'm going to pull the old mastercard out and spend those $40...I've actually been looking forward trying some of the excersises out. Thanks in advance Ricardo!



Ricardo -> RE: Pumping Nylon? (Nov. 26 2006 17:43:47)

I was going to PM you, but just incase others are interested...
quote:

As for your FT lesson, I wanted to buy it but the minimum deposit is 40$

Actually no you can buy individual lessons. You have to send ramin an email (he has it on the site I assume) and tell him which you want, and he sends a link for you ,and you pay an extra 2 bucks or something for the processing. I dont' really know how it works or anything else, I just play OK? [;)] But I know you don't have to pay the minimum if you only want one or two lessons. Look in the FAQ on the site too.

Ricardo



Page: [1]

Valid CSS!




Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET