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Guest -> [Deleted] (Nov. 16 2006 18:39:30)

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Mark2 -> RE: Jose tanaka (Nov. 16 2006 19:20:19)

Sweet!! -know the tuning? Just low string dropped? I really like this guy's playing.




Guest -> [Deleted] (Nov. 16 2006 19:23:09)

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Mark2 -> RE: Jose tanaka (Nov. 16 2006 19:26:22)

I'm listening to his bulerias now-I like how he pushes it-it sounds like he's playing at the edge of his ability and I like that sound from him. Like he might crash but doesn't. It gives off a lot of energy.




Guest -> [Deleted] (Nov. 16 2006 19:37:15)

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Mark2 -> RE: Jose tanaka (Nov. 16 2006 21:20:00)

Well Todd has a point, it can be annoying, but I don't feel that way with this guy. He surprises me when he plays some stuff.




sonikete -> RE: Jose tanaka (Nov. 16 2006 21:25:28)

I thought he played well, but had a tendency to rush in the bulerias i heard, but that might be an intentional way of putting energy into it.

I guess if he played with another guitarist who was slightly behind the beat they might compensate each other.


I found an interesting but, somewhat dry, site about microtiming for anyone interested in the subject:

quote:

I have experienced one of the most interesting musical revelations of my life, gradually over the last several years, in studying West African dance-drumming and in playing jazz, hip-hop and funk. The revelation was that the simplest repetitive musical patterns could be imbued with a universe of expression.


quote:

Bilmes (1993) conducted a timing analysis of a recorded performance of Los Muñequitos de Matanzas, an Afro-Cuban rumba group [CD-37]. In a performance averaging 110 beats per minute (such that what would be a notated sixteenth note lasts around 135 milliseconds), both the quinto and the segundo (lead and middle conga drum, respectively) tend to play about 30 milliseconds ahead, or "on top."



http://www.cnmat.berkeley.edu/People/Vijay/06.%20Microtiming%20Studies.html




Guest -> [Deleted] (Nov. 16 2006 23:47:51)

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Guest -> [Deleted] (Nov. 16 2006 23:58:45)

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Guest -> [Deleted] (Nov. 17 2006 0:14:19)

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Guest -> [Deleted] (Nov. 17 2006 0:20:50)

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Ricardo -> RE: Jose tanaka (Nov. 17 2006 5:46:01)

quote:

both the quinto and the segundo (lead and middle conga drum, respectively) tend to play about 30 milliseconds ahead, or "on top."


They "tend" to? That is pretty vague. Relative to who? Did they record with a click reference? I might be inclined to say they also tend to rush, but I would not know unless I heard it or was in the group. Perhaps they felt dragging going on and wanted to keep everyone in line. Relative to the draging they heard, their beat might have felt right on. But I would say, since they did not do it invariably, that they probably meant to play right on time. The point of practicing with a metronome, is to play right smack on time as much as you are capable. Practice being off time a hair, I don't really get it? Practice like that, and you certainly will be off time.

People who always rush are always on top of the beat too. Folks who drag down the time, are always a hair late. That is the way it works. People right on time, tend to stay on time. Dynamics and swing can help express "aggressive" or "laid back" feeling, better than playing a hair late or early.

Ricardo




Guest -> [Deleted] (Nov. 17 2006 8:15:38)

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sonikete -> RE: Jose tanaka (Nov. 17 2006 15:27:34)

Well microtiming might be a useless concept for some people, its not useless for me however and not for a lot of latin and african drummusic.

And if you are uninterested in the subject, i have a piece of advice; dont read it!

quote:


They "tend" to? That is pretty vague. Relative to who? Did they record with a click reference? I might be inclined to say they also tend to rush, but I would not know unless I heard it or was in the group. Perhaps they felt dragging going on and wanted to keep everyone in line. Relative to the draging they heard, their beat might have felt right on. But I would say, since they did not do it invariably, that they probably meant to play right on time. The point of practicing with a metronome, is to play right smack on time as much as you are capable. Practice being off time a hair, I don't really get it? Practice like that, and you certainly will be off time.


If you read the article there are more examples and a detailed description of the example i cited.

For me microtiming is sort of rhythmic dynamics, it is like gravity and i use it when i play and this was just an academic study of this.

Other people dont use it, and i wouldnt really care either way. Im not preaching about it.




Guest -> [Deleted] (Nov. 17 2006 16:27:04)

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sonikete -> RE: Jose tanaka (Nov. 17 2006 16:31:53)

Glad it pleased at least someone!

Its a bit dry and academic, but it was interesting for me to find a more intellectual study of something i couldnt describe myself, i called it a "rubberband" feeling, LOL




Guest -> [Deleted] (Nov. 17 2006 16:33:43)

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Ricardo -> RE: Jose tanaka (Nov. 18 2006 21:20:44)

quote:

On the other hand, the tumbao (low conga drum) had a much broader distribution, nearly as often late as early. It should be noted that here the precise moment of the beat was not determined by the norm set by these three instruments themselves, as it was in the case of the string trio. Rather, the beat was established by a reference instrument, in this case a clave or a guagua.


This is the part I was looking for. Says it all to me.[8|]

And also notice how his example of T. Monk playing "laid back" made the listeners laugh because it was so off.[:D]

I am not saying it is not done, I am just saying it is ok for a soloist to do this OCCASIONALLY. But a rhythm section? sorry, I hope folks are not PRACTICING to do this on purpose. Purhaps imperfection IS human or adds human touch of life to an ensemble, but practicing that intentionally???

I said before the soloist, the ADVANCED soloist who already is perfect, can mess around, but knowing he needs his back up to be SOLID as a rock. You won't see dancers doing this to there accompanists, since tempo change is so important in flamenco.

The only time I have heard this done intentionally by a flamenco, was paco's falseta on Cigala's latest. He does that phrase for a compas and a half at like 1:28-1:34, where he plays on the beat, but drags it so it is "late" or "lazy" or "laid back". It threw me off at first. He is trying to be jazzy, but it is very weird for flamenco style to me. Of course he goes right back to being tight for the rest.

But I dont' recommend students to be practicing like this! [8|]

How come I don't hear about any studies of guys that play darn perfect all the time, and still give "aggressive" or "laid back feeling"?

Ricardo




sonikete -> RE: Jose tanaka (Nov. 19 2006 18:16:12)

Ricardo, I think you misinterpret the concept a bit. I have heard a lot of Cuban and South American drum music like Candombe where its very common to have several rythms going with a slight delay in the beat and another drum is slightly ahead, one drum alone sound like its off all the time, but when everyone plays together it really swings.

If you read the whole thing i think you'll understand that its more or less the same thing you can find in Funk or Jerez style playing but a lot less extreme than in candombe.

Its no brainy concept at all, its something very, very basic. Its just that it has been through an academic analysis and come out labeled "microtiming".

If id ask any of my Candombe playing friends about it, they wouldnt understand what i was talking about.




duende -> RE: Jose tanaka (Nov. 19 2006 18:25:45)

quote:

Three Types of Time
Although this article is aimed at beginners to the metronome, you should know that there are actually three distinctly different types of time that experienced players use. This article covers playing directly On the Beat but you can also play slightly On Top of the Beat (for a more exciting feel) or slightly Behind the Beat (for a more laid back groove). I suggest that you first become comfortable playing directly On the Beat before attempting the other two time feels.




duende -> RE: Jose tanaka (Nov. 19 2006 18:36:35)

quote:



BEAT PLACEMENT

After a certain degree of accuracy of pulse is established I urge the student to purposely try to play ahead and behind the beat. At first just use simple scales, licks or forms such as the blues that are automatically under the fingers so you can concentrate on the task at hand, which is feeling the “area” of the beat in order to get that part of the body which is responsible executing what one feels and hears. Using a playalong record can help since whatever the rhythm section feels like, at the least it remains in the same place time after time, so you can use this as a sort of barometer to play with in order to habitualize the sensation. This is really more of a physical exercise than just musical. One must feel the beat as a rubber band—expanding and contracting at will, but never so far as to drag or rush the beat!!


this explains it so well




sonikete -> RE: Jose tanaka (Nov. 19 2006 18:45:55)

quote:

One must feel the beat as a rubber band—expanding and contracting at will, but never so far as to drag or rush the beat!!


Yeah!! "Rubberband", im not crazy!! Funny that someone else use the same expression. Where is that from?




duende -> RE: Jose tanaka (Nov. 19 2006 18:54:25)

http://www.tigerbill.com/drumlessons/metronometimeintimeout.htm


scroll down



http://upbeat.com/lieb/Feature_Articles/JazzRhythm.htm

scroll waaaaay down or read the whole article




sonikete -> RE: Jose tanaka (Nov. 19 2006 18:55:26)

Gracias tio!




duende -> RE: Jose tanaka (Nov. 19 2006 19:03:36)

Tio!?! your older than me dude![:D] im only kidding. how old are you by then way?

Im 31.




sonikete -> RE: Jose tanaka (Nov. 19 2006 19:07:09)

Im 39, but with tio wasnt referring to your age [:D]




Ricardo -> RE: Jose tanaka (Nov. 20 2006 3:38:09)

Thanks for finding those interesting articles Henrik.

Tigerbill said:
quote:

And while it's true that no human can keep a tempo as steady as a machine, a tempo that varies noticeably will quickly destroy any groove.


Sorry but I dont' agree with the first part. Again check out that Paco DVD and there you have 3 guys doing it together, pretty close to machine like. Second part of the sentence is right on. And he gives good advice in general about using the metronome to practice.

The Jazz rhythm article, again, fine for jazz SOLOISTS playing scales and stuff, but I have trouble with statement. "after a certain degree of accuracy of pulse is established....". Um, don't you think the student should be a little more rock solid before trying to be "loose" or play around with the "micro time" of the metronome? I would think so, otherwise there is a danger of the student thinking he is really good and playing ahead or behind deliberately, when in fact he could not keep a rock solid beat if he needed to. Dangerous IMO for a student.

In general, I think this an easy way for someone to make excuses for not being dead on. But don't forget, the guy is talking about mainly using the click as TWO or FOUR of the measure, to get used to playing to the snare. If you just think about it for a minute, you can play the beat in different ways to make the click mean different things. Especially if you are swinging. But by putting the downbeats early, you make the up beat click SOUND like it is a bit late or "in the pocket" or laid back, or swinging if you want.

But that does not mean you are litterly playing ON TOP of the beat. It means you are redefining the beat relative to the click. Big difference to me. So I dont' need to go on and on about this, my point is don't mess around unless you really KNOW you are rock solid. And don't mess around with this stuff in flamenco compas. Learn to keep a beat first. (not talking about swinging contras, I talked about THAT already!).

Ok, peace, I am off this "rubberband" topic.

Ricardo




sonikete -> RE: Jose tanaka (Nov. 20 2006 16:43:11)

It was a more description of a feeling or sensation, that comes after playing for a really long time when a feeling of domination over rhythm and volume comes, rather than a recommendation for any student.

I was talking about pushing the beat, and to do that you need to be able to be at least be resonably in time.

And you are right about excuses for not being in time, guitarists and athletes can come up with the most absurd things to blame poor performance on.

But this is something you can feel in your hands, like playing with gravity or squeezing time, and they used the same expression i did and i never read that article before Henrik posted it so im pretty sure i know what im talking about.

But in order to feel that you of course also have to feel where the beat is, and a metronome would help people get there.

Peace back at you!




duende -> RE: Jose tanaka (Nov. 20 2006 18:50:57)

You can also read about how Miles Davis rythm section had absolutly diffrent timeing
and they´re considerd the best in jazz ever.

Hangcock being "on" "ahead"and "after" Tony wiliams always being on top pushing and ron carter being realy laid back.




Exitao -> RE: Jose tanaka (Nov. 20 2006 21:08:17)

quote:


Ricardo:
"after a certain degree of accuracy of pulse is established....". Um, don't you think the student should be a little more rock solid before trying to be "loose" or play around with the "micro time" of the metronome? I would think so, otherwise there is a danger of the student thinking he is really good and playing ahead or behind deliberately, when in fact he could not keep a rock solid beat if he needed to. Dangerous IMO for a student.


I think, correct me if I'm wrong, that the idea is to learn the basics of tempo, and then learn the limits of the tempo so that you can better feel your way around it.
If you learn where the outer limits are, and you learn to precisely play on top of, or behind the beat, then you must certainly be able to play precisely in the middle. I shouldn't think there would be any excused to be made.

And "certain degree" is somewhat unclear, maybe his certain degree approximates yours, or maybe he is in fact stricter? We don't know.




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