RE: Playing music for a living or or occasionally for money

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samuelgray -> RE: Playing music for a living or or occasionally for money (Jul. 21 2012 20:33:06)
Hello, playing music for a living person is always a happily moment. I used everyday music in the evening time and it entertain me a lot. music is the best partner of you when you are alone.

Doitsujin -> RE: Playing music for a living or or occasionally for money (Jul. 21 2012 21:27:10)
Hey Samuel, you just answered to a thread with the latest entry back in 2003.

Miguel de Maria -> RE: Playing music for a living or or occasionally for money (Jul. 21 2012 22:28:52)
Looks like a spammer, sad to say. That being said, I have to admit I reread the entire thread. 9 years ago, I was just starting out, and had never played a solo gig. Now I do about 100 a year as a soloist, and make my living doing it. Still can't play flamenco, though...!

Erik van Goch -> RE: Playing music for a living or or occasionally for money (Jul. 22 2012 1:03:25)
In the early 80ties i studied Zoology/Histology myself at high school, receiving a study grand from government. I did attend classes but hardly spent any time to additional study at all. Instead i spend my of school hours playing the guitar and several other instruments. As a result i did fail 1 out of 3 years, but i managed to graduate at the end. In the midd 80ties (after combining playing the guitar with finding a job) i entered Rotterdam high school of Music in order to study flamenco on a full time base. Soon i goth addicted to chess and in stead of playing flamenco i spend most of my time behind a chess board (more often than not 24/7). The first 4 years i still received a study grand from government. On top i found myself a job on saturday mornings as a postman (regular income and free health insurance). I did attend classes but most of my time was waisted to chess. As a result i failed to do my final exam in time. I ended up delaying it a couple of years more but after 8 years of "study" i finally became the 4th officially graduated flamenco guitar instructor of, well basically the world since it was the only music high school offering a master study flamenco guitar to start with. The last few years i had to survive without a government grand. On top of being a part time postman (saturdays and holidays) i did find myself a job at a flamenco dans school accompanying both beginners/middle/advanced classes. 1 night became 2 (and sometimes even 3) and all together i had a well payed but insecure job on 2 or 3 flamenco dans schools covering 6-10 hours a week for a couple of years. On top i had 1 or 2 students and occasionally some work as a performing artist. At that time (around 1991) i earned something like $300-400 a mound, enough to pay the bills and live a sober live. After i graduated i found some additional work offering flamenco courses at the local music school. Also i spend more days working as a postman. I entered a flamenco group and performed every once in a wile (mainly big festivals and concert hals). That didn't generate much money but it was fun to do and i did menage to maintain 400-500 a mound (enough to pay the bills) having lot's of time to spare. When our flamenco singer moved to Spain again our group departed. I did had some offers (which i declined) and in 1995 i decided to become a full time postman. I still am and practice flamenco only as a hobby ever since. Most flamenco students struggle to pay the bill, but i never ever met anyone who entered the world of flamenco to become rich and famous. Even Paco de Lucia himself stated once that he considered it to be a huge privilege that he was allowed to make a living as a musician and was able to pay both the rend and his foot in the process. Try to find yourself some gigs, students or dans schools (i was an un-payed guest for mounds before i was asked to become a payed first guitarist). Try to live sober and to generate some public activities. Ones people begin to know you (from lessons, performances etc.) things could change for the better (work generates work). You could start working a little less at your precent job (concentrate your musical activities to evenings, weekends or vast days of the week if possible). Get used to spending less money and gradually replace one live for another. It might take a couple of years and will always remain an financially uncertain live. But you never know. In 1955 my father quit his job cold turkey to become a full time musician at the age of 22. He worked his buts out and haven't been without a job a single day since. As a result he doubled his salary in the first mound and it would only raise the upcoming years. But don't expect the same results cause his working hours were incredible (12 ours a day, 362 days a year over 45 year period). First his fabulous band joined an established dance couple which gave them access to al the hotspots. Once known they soon became one of the most popular bands in the Netherlands during the 50's and 60's. They had mayor contracts at the biggest hotspots of the country. On top of composing, arranging, studying and rehursing they had to perform 6 hours a day ON STAGE, 362 days a year over a 10 year period. That equals over 20.000 hours of stage play, probably more than any of the individual beatles (20000 hours equals 10000 concerts, that's 1 concert a day over a 27 year period without skipping a single day!). In the midd 60's he entered high school of music to study classical guitar and on top of a full time job as a guitar teacher at the local music school he managed to skip a year and graduated cum laude in only 4 years of time. He became the head of the classical guitar department himself and remained working 12 hours a day, almost every day of the year for the next 30 year. In 1985 he joined Paco Pena and Ricardo Mendevile in their adventure offering the very first High school master study of Flamenco Guitar ever. That's were i joined in.

Ricardo -> RE: Playing music for a living or or occasionally for money (Jul. 23 2012 16:40:29)
Nice story Erik. Your dad should be quite proud of his achievments. That's what it take to really do something with music, and ties in to the statement I quoted of Mclaughlin about the big responsibility it means to be a musician. I glanced over the thread, it looks as a continuation of what happened at FT right before its first demise....and I recall getting pretty peeved at a lot of the more negative responses that generally read "don't take flamenco serious...keep it as a hobby or you'll be sorry". I pretty much new I was going to be a musician since I was 15 or so. Never thought twice about since that time, though the idea of flamenco music was not in my head at that time. While in college my focus shifted from rock to jazz to flamenco....and then after school my exploration and careful treading into flamenco land quickly resulted in the start of my career. It was a lot of work and dedication, but it pays off BIG TIME. I remember there was a scary moment where I was starting getting better at flamenco while still think more general about being a musician and I found myself playing for a flamenco singing think "wow....how did I end up HERE!!!"..... but all it takes is some encouragement to continue. THats why I was peeved by certain less than encouraging posts on this issue. Ricardo

rogeliocan -> RE: Playing music for a living or or occasionally for money (Jul. 23 2012 17:27:22)
quote: playing music for a living person is always a happily moment. Beats the hell out of playing for dead people!

Guest -> [Deleted] (Jul. 23 2012 22:52:36)
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Miguel de Maria -> RE: Playing music for a living or or occasionally for money (Jul. 23 2012 23:03:17)
People who have given up on their dreams may not be the best place to look for encouragement. Nor are those who don't take music seriously.

machopicasso -> RE: Playing music for a living or or occasionally for money (Jul. 24 2012 8:20:28)
quote: I remember there was a scary moment where I was starting getting better at flamenco while still think more general about being a musician and I found myself playing for a flamenco singing think "wow....how did I end up HERE!!!"..... but all it takes is some encouragement to continue. That's my favorite part of your story. I like the ambiguity of it all. Many times, it's the ambiguity that makes it real. Curiously, who encouraged you?

Ricardo -> RE: Playing music for a living or or occasionally for money (Jul. 24 2012 21:27:38)
quote: Curiously, who encouraged you?] Well, would be a LONG list. Mainly, people I looked up to in flamenco might have said "good compas...but...." and you go forward from there. The worst is to get someone to turn their back on you. I remember i was with 3 guitarists in a tablao show and the singer insisted to rearrange the chairs so I sat beside him. That was a big plus. Even some harsh critic can be encouraging....la tati criticized me after the first dance class I played for cuz I had a Paco t shirt. You think cuz you have a paco t shirt you are flamenco??? LOL. Some one defend me "he has compas though..." she responded "in the land of the blind the one eyed man is king".... a lot of people thought I and the local community should be insulted but I thought it was a huge compliment![:D] Some years later she seemed to really like me and liked hanging out and singing for me so I could learn to accompany some stuff. Another time a mediocre singer told others behind my back I was not very good and perhaps in 10 years I would be good. Well, that was 13 years ago and he was right!!![:D] People often get discouraged when they make a mistake or think they did well and get put down...it's important to understand your place and keep focused on moving ahead. It can feel like joing a fraternity where you have go through some crap to get to a respected position. Anyone who gives up prematurely doesn't get in, and thats too bad cuz sometimes it just takes a little pat on the back to be inspired to continue.

felipe -> RE: Playing music for a living or or occasionally for money (Jul. 25 2012 7:34:49)
Yes. I think this is the way to go - seeing good things inside things that seem not oto look too good (critic, any kind of crisis and so on). Playing music for money is only a part of my earnings (I have a regular job, but connected with culture, so I can see also the other part of music - organising gigs, promotion and so on), but it is a part of it for about 10 years (dance classes acompaniament, guitar lessons, cajon workshops, education concerts for children, playing with my friend's latin - jazz band as a replacement, playing bigger concerts with other flamencos). The thing is I don't see a way for transition to full time (flamenco is a kind of not to popular in my area, children and lots of other things). At least not now. But I know some people that are full timers (members of the latin-jazz band I wrote about). What they say is it was a lot of work to make situation be as it is, but it was worth.

paleto3 -> RE: Playing music for a living or or occasionally for money (Jul. 29 2012 6:54:18)
Miguel, I saw someone had posted in this thread I started 9 years ago to the day!!!! I started to write about 20 minutes before midnight of July 28. July 29 being the exact 9 year mark. Funny coincidence. I have been playing music for the last 6 years. It is so, so, so hard. My bank account went negative for the umpteenth time last week and it creates soooo much stress when that happens. I hate that. But when I learn a new falseta or get a nice compliment from a guest, I like that a lot. The hardest part is telling a potential client what you charge and having them refuse. You always suspect they haven't got a clue as to your costs and input of time and that they really don't care that you eat or not when they hire you or not. The other hardest part is seeing so many gorgeous women at these events I play and knowing I couldn't afford to support them and their spending habits. Sometimes I think I will never be able to attract another woman because I am a musician. Somehow, I feel I have to do what I comes from my soul (if there is one) and live with the consequences. I cannot be a desk jockey and an employee anymore. I know what I need to do to make money and I do it all week. I suppose I should be grateful to think that I am doing what I should be doing. But it still sucks to never have enough in the bank. I suppose it can only get better as we hopefully climb out of this economy.

Erik van Goch -> RE: Playing music for a living or or occasionally for money (Jul. 29 2012 9:44:46)
You can also be rejected when you charge to less. I met a marvelous sculptor once who raised charges from 50 to 500 overnight.... why? because charging 500 he received noticeably more recognition from general public than with the lower price tag (with that low prices it can't' be very much can't it?). I once was called by local government who were in desperate need for a flamenco guitar player or even better a flamenco group....but we can't pay very much.... Since i needed the money and it was only 1 hour of work (on walking distance from my house) i offered them a very low price for my presence only (the gig was 3 hours later, no time to arrange a group). OK, we try to find a group elsewhere butt we'll keep you in mind. As it turned out they hired another solo guitar player in stead who offered his services for much much more money than i asked. Again they figured a higher price tag equalled more quality. It happened to be a new student of mine who could only play one piece. He played them the same f@#$ piece 12 times on a row. Serves them right...at the time i was one of very few locals who were able to play over 12 pieces. As far as the girls are involved, they never payed any attention to me, but one of my colleges had the most beautiful girl one could ever hope to find. And every time i had a gig with a very nice and handsome 15 year old flamenco dancer he attracted even more teenage girls than Justin Beaver. The same happened with all the girls on his regular school. He never took advantage.

XXX -> RE: Playing music for a living or or occasionally for money (Jul. 29 2012 11:21:22)
quote: ORIGINAL: Erik van Goch It happened to be a new student of mine who could only play one piece. He played them the same f@#$ piece 12 times on a row. Serves them right... Same piece12 times, that takes balls. I even hesitate to repeat the same chord or cycle more than one time [:D]

Erik van Goch -> RE: Playing music for a living or or occasionally for money (Jul. 29 2012 14:21:25)
quote: ORIGINAL: Deniz quote: ORIGINAL: Erik van Goch It happened to be a new student of mine who could only play one piece. He played them the same f@#$ piece 12 times on a row. Serves them right... Same piece12 times, that takes balls. I even hesitate to repeat the same chord or cycle more than one time [:D] You can do that without giving it a second thought. I ones decided to work out 3 or 4 fabulous bulerias compas variations Moraito adapted in his instructive video. To my surprise i discovered they were all identical.

Ricardo -> RE: Playing music for a living or or occasionally for money (Jul. 30 2012 13:44:29)
quote: The other hardest part is seeing so many gorgeous women at these events I play and knowing I couldn't afford to support them and their spending habits. Sometimes I think I will never be able to attract another woman because I am a musician. Investigate grants and other such funding. I used to be proudly adverse to such things but in the end you find there are some institutions that understand its difficult and want to help hard working artists and reward them for continuing their work. About women...not all good looking women are like that. You may just approach and discover some with a brain and soul NEED a real man that has pride and art and soul too...not money. Some of those brainless gold digging beauties cant' even kiss maybe good to carry on the arm briely for your ego, but will bore you anyway. Simple conversation will reveal in minutes what your dealing with. Of course you can lower your standards a little and find a "sugar momma" to support you if your that kind of dude.[;)]

paleto3 -> RE: Playing music for a living or or occasionally for money (Aug. 5 2012 6:19:41)
True, but I couldn't do the sugar mama thing. I need someone with life experience and depth. You are definitely right. When the time is right, it will happen and will meet someone:-)

Ricardo -> RE: Playing music for a living or or occasionally for money (Aug. 5 2012 15:14:45)
quote: ORIGINAL: paleto3 True, but I couldn't do the sugar mama thing. I need someone with life experience and depth. You are definitely right. When the time is right, it will happen and will meet someone:-) time is NOW man...don't wait for em to have to chase you down.

Miguel de Maria -> RE: Playing music for a living or or occasionally for money (Aug. 6 2012 1:55:53)
Paleto, amazing that it has been so long! I got the impression from your other thread that you are a "true" artist who really does put his art before any kind of business considerations. That attitude is often ridiculed in this country, but I applaud you. It sounds like you are doing what you have to do. I noticed in the luthiery threads that there are some like you, for example Anders, who has the artistic soul as well. However, about the women thing--you probably can't support a high-maintenance woman, but you probably can find a beautiful one who is willing to enter into a partnership with you. A flamenco dancer, a girl who likes musicians and also works odd hours, another artist, maybe even a professional who appreciates you and who, with mutual compromise, can make it work. Most of the guitarists around here have women that, genetically speaking, they don't deserve :) I think that the artist who wants to make a go at it should study business and try to cook up ways to make some cash, too. You can play weddings, corporate events, funerals (yes, I have!), sell CDs... How much to compromise is never an easy question.

Miguel de Maria -> RE: Playing music for a living or or occasionally for money (Aug. 6 2012 2:02:00)
Erik, it is a known fact that too low a price has a bad effect on perceived quality. In my experience, cheap clients, who are actively looking for a low price, are often disrespectful, unpleasant, and refer friends like themselves. In other words, they are more trouble than they are worth. There is a photographer in this state that supposedly starts at $20,000 to shoot a wedding. I think it is a promotional gimmick to differentiate himself from the masses and jump into the luxury market. Generally speaking, I think it is better to go for the slight high end.

n85ae -> RE: Playing music for a living or or occasionally for money (Aug. 6 2012 2:04:16)
My opinion - All women look the same after you are married to them for a while ... Also how they look has nothing to do with how they are as a wife. Beauty is only good for a few months. :) Jeff quote: However, about the women thing--you probably can't support a high-maintenance woman, but you probably can find a beautiful one who is willing to enter into a partnership with you. A flamenco dancer, a girl who likes musicians and also works odd hours, another artist, maybe even a professional who appreciates you and who, with mutual compromise, can make it work. Most of the guitarists around here have women that, genetically speaking, they don't deserve :)

Arash -> RE: Playing music for a living or or occasionally for money (Aug. 6 2012 22:44:44)
Interesting discussions and stories guys, thanks. Paleto, its the exact opposite. Almost every musician i know attracts woman. And most of those girls are not some stupid groupie type girls (ok,one is), but intelligent and beautiful at the same time. One of my friends is fat and baldie and small, and he has a long time girlfriend who is beautiful and very smart and also really loves the guy. She saw him first time while he was performing (he plays drums). He doesn't have money, but no problem for the girl. She also helps him, actually she has more money than he has lol So it must be the music, the art, soulful playing whatever, etc. which attracted this girl at first. Also not all girls have those "spending habbits" you talk about. But you need to be open minded and also relaxed yourself. Don't think about your bank account when you play lol, that will make you unattractive. You need to be yourself and fully in your music. You will find the right girl man. Its much easier than you think. Just relax

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