What happen to Thomas Whiteley (Full Version)

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DavidT -> What happen to Thomas Whiteley (Nov. 10 2006 18:57:28)

What happens to Thomas Whiteley? Any one know?
Tom had contributed many nice advices to the forummers, including myself. His Web site has plenty of good stuff.
I have not see him on the forum for a while...
Pat probably knows about it.[:(][8|]



Ron.M -> RE: What happen to Thomas Whiteley (Nov. 10 2006 20:39:35)

Tom (IMO) was very insulted when he was recounting some times from his past, in meeting Sabicas, Juan Serrano etc and (Tom's in his 60's now) was reflecting upon his taste and experiences in having Flamenco guitar as a great hobby over the last 40 years or so.
Sure, he stated his position and taste with respect to new/old style Flamenco.
Some younger members jumped on him and generally ridiculed the basic uploads he'd made and generally made fun of him, because he didn't play "great" or "cool".
The guy spent a lot of time making tabs and falsetas available to others on his own site, which he ran for no self-promotion, or financial gain.
He got together with Pat to put together a handbook for beginners trying to put together a recording setup.
He made some handbooks on some palos, offering instruction and advice on chord sequences and falsetas etc.
Folk were always free to email him for advice, or just a chat.

Tom wasn't a great player in the "Vincente" or "Gerardo" bracket.
He played basic Traditional stuff to the best of his abilities and his own enjoyment.
He just tried to help beginners and share his experiences.

If there is anything I'm ashamed about on this Forum..
Is the way Tom was treated.

(I'll say no more, though I'm tempted to)

cheers

Ron



Patrick -> RE: What happen to Thomas Whiteley (Nov. 10 2006 21:02:51)

Ron,

You said it best and I can add no more. Tom's good people and deserves better. I wish him the best.



nhills -> RE: What happen to Thomas Whiteley (Nov. 10 2006 21:30:51)

Ron:

You said it very well. Tom's a great guy - glad I had the chance to know him.

Norman



Mark2 -> RE: What happen to Thomas Whiteley (Nov. 10 2006 22:02:17)

The crazy thing about flamenco is that your chops have little to do with your knowledge or even experience in flamenco. Today's players and students are playing and studying stuff that guys in the 60's didn't know. That doesn't invalidate those older guys' experiences. Tom wrote that he played for Rosa Montoya, Ciro, etc, and given that we are from the same area, and that I also played for Rosa a bit, and knew many of the same people that Tom does, I have no doubt about his experiences. Many people today may play "better" but will they be able to play for flamencos of that level and have those kind of experiences? Some yes, some no. Finally, I can atest that as you get older, playing the guitar simply may not be as interesting as it was when you were younger, which means that your chops may not be what they were when you were thirty years old when you are fifty or sixty. Live and let live, and have some respect your elders cause your gonna be there sooner than you think![:D]



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koella -> RE: What happen to Thomas Whiteley (Nov. 10 2006 22:42:13)

Aaaah, the good old days.[:)]

Oh come on !
This seems to become a condolence thread.
Thomas still is alive and he can join if he wants, no ?
He just has to cut the "I met Sabicas" **** and act as a genuine forum member.

As I remember well, the **** hit the fan when he started to belittle some other members.



Ricardo -> RE: What happen to Thomas Whiteley (Nov. 10 2006 23:05:05)

Oh, wow, I see what was going on. Shoots! (Where is the emoticon for the face you make when you hear glass breaking?)
Here is the old thread that Romerito dug up recently(necroposter!:[:@][:D])
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=35803&p=1&mpage=1&tmode=1&smode=1

If you read down after Thomas Whiteley posted, I pulled quotes on him about his career and things he said about paco being laboratory flamenco or something. (my tunnle vision only saw that, sorry!). I think there was some other business going on between him and Florian maybe or some other guys, but honestly I don't think I was in that one. I just came across these remarks and was pretty impressed by this bio. I guess it sounded like I was challenging him since the guys after me seemed to be challenging him, looking for his uploads.

To be honest I never checked out his upload, never got into any problems or arguements with him before (that I can remembe?), and was generally interested in meeting him in California since I was headed out there. I ended up going to Fresno only, but some guys I have met from the forum know me and met me, should know I am genuinly interested in meeting folks face to face. Even folks I argue with![:D]

So I never noticed since the thread died, he later deleted his remarks I quoted. I guess it seems offensive that I have those "quotes from nowhere" and seems like I was involved in "challenging" the guy with my language, and by what the other guys said and must have had going on with him in some other topic. It looks bad to me anyway.

So for what it is worth if you guys who keep in touch know or think I offended Thomas (he never contacted me and deleted the stuff I quoted), then tell him I am sorry. And if you want, for the sake of the archive I will delete my quotes and stuff I said, no problem, since he did not want it written there anyway.

Ricardo



Patrick -> RE: What happen to Thomas Whiteley (Nov. 10 2006 23:15:07)

Ricardo,

I don't remember you being an issue at all.

He has posted a bit sense all that came about, so he hasn't gone away completely. He was nearing retirement, so maybe he's just pruning roses. [:)]



koella -> RE: What happen to Thomas Whiteley (Nov. 10 2006 23:17:39)

This is what Thomas said about the average forum member :


quote:

Just call them closet flamenco guitar players. Being a critic is easy. They have not done much to interest or teach others flamenco but they know it all. We are indeed fortunate to have such an assemblage of experts.



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koella -> RE: What happen to Thomas Whiteley (Nov. 10 2006 23:30:35)

@ Romerito : Don't say sorry man. Just fooling around.[:D]
I just wanted to state that we didn't bully Thomas.

It's just the sheer arrogance I can't stand, right, Patrick ?[:D]



Miguel de Maria -> RE: What happen to Thomas Whiteley (Nov. 10 2006 23:31:44)

Please, no deleting of old threads. And I think going through them is very good. Most of the questions and points brought up here have been said many times before. Sometimes if you see the same question being answered the same time ten times, you will finally get it.



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koella -> RE: What happen to Thomas Whiteley (Nov. 10 2006 23:44:24)

Quote from Thomas:

quote:

Just call them closet flamenco guitar players. Being a critic is easy. They have not done much to interest or teach others flamenco but they know it all. We are indeed fortunate to have such an assemblage of experts.



This would go for you too If you would have been around then.



Guest -> [Deleted] (Nov. 10 2006 23:50:20)

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koella -> RE: What happen to Thomas Whiteley (Nov. 10 2006 23:55:57)

Yeah, and when you're around long enough, you will experience that certain mini expeperts will never critize you. In fact they ignore you.



Patrick -> RE: What happen to Thomas Whiteley (Nov. 11 2006 0:44:14)

quote:

It's just the sheer arrogance I can't stand, right, Patrick ?


Did something get lost in the translation? I'm not the smartest guy around so you have to spell things out for me a bit clearer. Are you saying I'm "arrogant"? Or Tom is "arrogant"? Or you just don't like "arrogance" in general?

I don't know how I got brought into this in the first place. I just think he's an OK guy is all. Yeah, he ain't Paco, but he still has helped a lot of folks over the years. Hell, I haven’t even met the guy.



Florian -> RE: What happen to Thomas Whiteley (Nov. 11 2006 0:55:55)

quote:

He played basic Traditional stuff to the best of his abilities and his own enjoyment


we all do that, we all just play to the best of our abilities, if he can dish it out he should be able to take it.

we had dissagreements words were said ( i even feel bad about some of them but in the spare of the moment stuff comes out)
but he gave just as much as he got, hes no more a victim than anyone else here.



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koella -> RE: What happen to Thomas Whiteley (Nov. 11 2006 7:10:49)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Patrick

Are you saying I'm "arrogant"? Or Tom is "arrogant"? Or you just don't like "arrogance" in general?


Allright, this is what annoyes me : Neglecting persons because they are not around long enough or saying things about them without addressing to them personal.
Patrick, if I hadn't mentioned your name, you wouldn't probably even have replied to me.

And yes I hate arrogance in general.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: What happen to Thomas Whiteley (Nov. 11 2006 8:08:48)

Ok guys

So now the hammering starts again and the same peole start tuting their same story. Dont you ever get tired[:'(]

There are a big lack of respect to other people on this forum and could you please change that???????

Thomas is doing well, and has told me that he prefers using his time playing than wasting his time on this forum.
I personally dont think its a waste of time and I still find tons of discussions which are very interesting and helpfull, but sometimes this lack of respect makes me turn of the computer myself, and if I had been through what Thomas and others have been through, I would have quit myself.

With respect of playing style and level of playing, I will only say, that if some of you guys with tons of Tomatito and Vicente Amigo falsetas ever mix with real world flamenco here in Andalucia, (I´m talking about places with dancers and singers, not some group of guitarist!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) You´d be told to get your act together and play something that the rest, the group, can use, and you´d be told to stop showing of, or you might even be told to go to the bar and have drink and not disturb what is going on.
People playing like Thomas, would be respected and invited to join the party.....

You should never forget this.

Its a tough world, but its what we´ve got and if we stop fighting each other about small stupidities it might be that it could be a better world[;)]



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XXX -> RE: What happen to Thomas Whiteley (Nov. 11 2006 13:07:02)

Is "closet player" a respectful term? "Being a critic is easy", well sadly Thomas was a pretty good example of that. And besides, being a critic is NOT easy, being a BAD critic, with a wrong critique is easy ;)
Oh and the question whether I would rather like to be able like Tomatito or rather like an accompanist, is not a big question (to me). One could also argue with the same right, that traditionalist have no respect for guitarists, and that it would be a better world, if they would stop using their experience as a weapon AGAINST guitarists. People disrespect, "because ..." and then you must find out what the reason is, and look if you can solve it. Its like with the analogy, that it doesnt help to ease the symptoms, you have to solve the source of the disease, to cure it.
Why cant you leave it at that we say: traditionalists play what THEY want, and guitarists play what they want. Nothing to do with respect. Just the simple rule: Discuss each other, dont f*ck each other.



Crows -> RE: What happen to Thomas Whiteley (Nov. 11 2006 13:25:50)

Man.... deja vu, it's like a girls powder room in here.



Ricardo -> RE: What happen to Thomas Whiteley (Nov. 11 2006 15:25:05)

quote:

With respect of playing style and level of playing, I will only say, that if some of you guys with tons of Tomatito and Vicente Amigo falsetas ever mix with real world flamenco here in Andalucia, (I´m talking about places with dancers and singers, not some group of guitarist!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) You´d be told to get your act together and play something that the rest, the group, can use, and you´d be told to stop showing of, or you might even be told to go to the bar and have drink and not disturb what is going on.
People playing like Thomas, would be respected and invited to join the party.....


[&:] Well the first time I went to Spain with my "faletas" I had alot to learn and did in an environment with "a group of guitarists". But there were singers and dancers too. I guess it depends who you "mix" with, but I and everyone else was not told to take a hike. We were treated with respect and encouraged by the "Andalucians" there. Perhaps they were told to "be nice"?, but who cares. Your point is well taken, but not clear WHO that posts on this forum, your advice would apply to?

The problem with folks getting upset on here is when general statements are made with negativity, that could apply to anyone but no one specific, so we have to "read" into it unnecessarily.

Ricardo



Miguel de Maria -> [Deleted] (Nov. 11 2006 15:38:40)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Nov. 11 2006 16:24:31



sonikete -> RE: What happen to Thomas Whiteley (Nov. 11 2006 17:30:20)

I think i understand what he is trying to say, i think the problem is that there seem to be a general confusion around a lot of concepts and that is maybe why people get into so many arguments, because they have completely different ideas of things.

1. "Noveau Flamenco" - Ottmar Liebert or his record company coined this pseudo genre to sell his first record and became trend in mainly the u.s where a a lot of former heavy metal guitarists seem to see this as a genre where they can keep their long hair and fast scales.

2. Flamenco Nuevo - A period in the 70´s and 80´s where a lot of young (spanish) flamencos inspired by paco started to experiment with new instumentations and musical influences, has nothing to do with "Noveau Flamenco"

3. Traditionalists - People who wants the instrumentation and expression to remain the same as before the Flamenco Nuevo period, they are not against progress or creativity but they mean that every artist does this naturally when they develop and become better artists.

4. "Modernists" - Have usually a great respect for traditional flamenco and the artists that preceeded them but wants to express themselves a bit freer and usually has paco, tomatito and camarón as rollmodels.

5. Flamenco Soloists - Have usually the same background in accompaniment as guitarists that doesnt become soloists, but has started composing and tries to make it as concertists.

This is at least how i understand it...



chinito -> RE: What happen to Thomas Whiteley (Nov. 11 2006 21:10:25)

Oh man this is an intense thread.

Sonikete has a good point. Confusion regarding "definitions" can get people's hackles up.

Another difficulty with e-forums is that sometimes it can be hard to tell the tone of a post by just reading the text. Sensitive types (myself included) might not pick up on sarcasm etc. when it's typed rather than spoken. Vocal inflection can change the meaning of a conversation immensely and here it's negated. I mean we all choose our words carefully, but it can be tough when others can't tell if your good-natured ribbing is friendly or not. That said, I like that people here are quick to apologize and use the smiley-faces to diffuse any misunderstandings when things get tense. Best to nip any resentments in the bud before people make enemies.

However, I also agree with Koella about arrogance. This goes for bullying as well. This is an open forum and we should be trying to help each other out not, as Deniz said, f*ck each other. If someone's getting a big head and ****ing people off it's preferable it got dealt with sooner rather than later, no? Petty differences undermine the benefits this forum provides. Iron it out before we lose members.

Man, this got really preachy. Hope I don't come off as a know-it-all. I think this is a great forum. I'm gonna quit while I'm ahead.

-Jake.



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