Flamenco "pieces" (Full Version)

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Miguel de Maria -> Flamenco "pieces" (Nov. 8 2006 23:52:58)

I know we guitarists are always reminded that flamenco is improvisatory and all about the cante and all that, but as a guy who plays guitar, having set pieces is very important, not to mention satisfying. I was happy to see that Ricardo was down with Esteban de Sanlucar, as he has written a bunch of these things--they are very flamenco-sounding yet melodic and self-contained. I learned Panaderos Flamencos, which is very hard to play, and am right now working on Primavera Andaluz. Both are a treat for the listener (or watcher) and flashy.

I guess some of the Sabicas works are similiar in that they are self-contained compositions, but I wonder if anyone knows someone similiar to Sanlucar, who has written a bunch of these gems.



sonikete -> RE: Flamenco "pieces" (Nov. 9 2006 0:02:49)

quote:

I know we guitarists are always reminded that flamenco is improvisatory and all about the cante and all that, but as a guy who plays guitar, having set pieces is very important, not to mention satisfying.


Most dance performances are just as much "pieces" as on the guitar, so i dont think there is a conflict, both having a prepared pieces of music and being able to follow a improvising singer are things a flamenco guitarist is supposed to be able to do.

Do you mean someone who composed in a style similar to Esteban Sanlúcar?



Ricardo -> RE: Flamenco "pieces" (Nov. 9 2006 7:31:00)

Well nothing wrong with it, but it is a more advanced thing that is all. Flamenco does not have to be a complete arranged solo, but it CAN be, and is by the maestros often. The point of reiterrating it is for folks learning and getting "stuck" on a piece. Once the student gets the concept of falsetas and improvisation, accomp, etc, nothing wrong with memorizing "Impetu" by Escudero. Or "La Barrosa", or whatever. But if your perfermance tempo is half what it is supposed to be....

Point being if you can perform pro and play in rhythm, do whatever the hell you want. But if you are learning how to play bulerias, don't learn an entire piece, learn strumming patterns and easy falsetas first. Unlike Bach, you are allowed to skip hard sections, or save them until your technique develops.

E. Sanlucar is good because they are short, but there are classics by Ramon Montoya, Sabicas , Escudero etc. Nothing easy though, sorry. How about Juan Serrano's book?

Ricardo



sonikete -> RE: Flamenco "pieces" (Nov. 9 2006 10:29:46)

Yes, usually the prepared stuff is falsetas, not entire solos. And the point of performing "older" solos would usually be paying homage to the artist like when gerardo or riqueni does it. The repertoir of soloists is usually 99,9% their own compositions, so there is a also difference to a classical repertoir where usually none of it is their own.



Jon Boyes -> RE: Flamenco "pieces" (Nov. 9 2006 10:50:37)

I am in a similar position to you. I don't like spending too much time on flamenco pieces for the reasons Ricardo gives, but even in gigs where I am accompanying or playing with another guitarist I have solo spots, and set pieces do work well with mainstream audiences.

I doubt whether I can suggest anything you haven't already come across:

-Paco Pena's Toques book obviously
-Sabicas is definitely worth looking at. Check out Alain Fauchers transcription book - a few of his compositions are real gems and certainly fun to play, like Zapateado en re. Not easy!
-early PDL?
-Juan Martins Solos books? Most of it is probably not of a high enough standard to gig, but his rumbas can work well. Audiences love all the strumming/slapping stuff.

Can't think of any other 'collections' as such though. It really is a case of cherry picking. Occasionally something will pop up that works well as a solo - like Quique Parede's Cipres that Ron uploaded (which I'm also going to do).



Guest -> [Deleted] (Nov. 9 2006 16:53:05)

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JBASHORUN -> RE: Flamenco "pieces" (Nov. 9 2006 18:07:41)

I can be of little help here, so I won't say much.

But Juan Serrano is good at doing this sort of thing. The trouble is, the more "composed" it gets, it tends to become (or at least sound) "less Flamenco".

Have a listen to some of Juan Serrano's work and see if you think its suitable. One album I have is "Sabor Flamenco", and I like it a lot (I'm also very keen on the guys like Sanlucar and Escudero). Theres a mix of palos from Bulerias and farrucas, right through to rumbas. He even plays a Romanza called "Flamenco Romance", which I have a "hunch" is the same Romance you play on your new CD.

Which reminds me...

Jb



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Flamenco "pieces" (Nov. 9 2006 18:12:23)

Hmm, that's funny that everyone is saying Juan Serrano is easy. Half of his falsetas are mostly fast picado, which neither I nor many people on this board have mastered.

I guess my original question was not very well articulated. Looking back at Sanlucar's pieces, they are put together to be satisfying solo compositions. They don't seem to be "merely" strings of falsetas, and some of them are very accessible to even non-flamenco listeners. Such things are very valuable to the guitarist.

I actually do like Serrano's rumba "Las Olas", as a solo. It's quite simple but effective. You would have to take out the bass line that sounds exactly like "Entre Dos Aguas", though. Was it copying or an homage? Olas and Aguas? HMM....

Incidentally, I used to play in a duo and the guy wrote a rumba, which he called "Rumba Flamenco." Then a few years later I get this Juan Serrano album and this exact same song was on it. Homage, plagiarism, or coincidence? Hmmmm.



Ricardo -> RE: Flamenco "pieces" (Nov. 9 2006 20:39:24)

quote:

Then a few years later I get this Juan Serrano album and this exact same song was on it. Homage, plagiarism, or coincidence? Hmmmm.


Hmm, I wrote this song "bulerias" and then I saw this guy "chicuelo" something, using my same guitar, gotee, and playing the same style song! What is going on here miguel???

Trad flamenco is supposed to be like that. It may very well occur that two unrelated players come up with a very similar sounding falseta, or arrangement, if they have the same influences. More than a coincidence, but not plagiarism.

I said this stuff was NOT easy. I don't think Juan is that fast, but that does not mean all he plays is easy. His old records are sped up obviously, and the newer stuff "Sabor Flamenco" is pretty medium speed. His Panaderos is pretty slow compared to the original. Just recommending his book because from what I remembered seeing in it, was stuff up your ally.



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Flamenco "pieces" (Nov. 9 2006 21:11:35)

Dude, if you put out a bulerias that had all of the same falsetas as a bulerias on Chicuelo's album, wouldnt' that be a little fishy? Actually, I think my friend must have heard it and internalized it, then "wrote" it again. Heck, as you alluded, I doubt Serrano wrote most of those falsetas. But they were in the same order :). A bunch of familiar sounding falsetas following the bass line from "Entre Dos Aguas" :)

Listening to Juan Serrano as an old man, I would presume he was pretty fast in his day. But a very good player I know who used to tour with Chusacales and Pedro Cortes (he claims he was better than both of them :)), said that Juan Serrano's biggest weakness was his picado. Go figure...



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