Optimum Neck Angle (Full Version)

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JBASHORUN -> Optimum Neck Angle (Nov. 3 2006 20:19:28)

Hola,

I was wondering if anyone can tell me the optimum neck angle for a Flamenco guitar? I was told that a 2-3 degree FORWARD angle is typical for a classical guitar. But my figuring is that you can get a lower action (as prefered by Flamencos) by using a FLAT or even BACKWARD angle. Is it advisable to do this, and if you do, would you have to compensate for it by raising the bridge/saddle height?

Another quick question: by how much do I need to "compensate" the bridge position in addition to the scale length?

Thanks in advance.

James



pablo requena -> RE: Optimum Neck Angle (Nov. 3 2006 20:46:23)

Hi James

I use the same neck angle in classical and flamencos, I do the adjustiments on the fingerboard. It would be a little complicated to explain here, but if you are anywhere near Lewes,in East Sussex, you are very wellcome to come down to my workshop and see how I do it.
For the compensation I add 1.5 to 2 mm


Pablo


www.spanishguitar.org.uk
www.spanishguitarshop.co.uk



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Optimum Neck Angle (Nov. 4 2006 8:23:52)

Hi James.

I´m almost with Pablo. I also adjust the difference in the fingerboard, but tend to give my flamencos 1mm more in the jig. (difficult to explain. You have to see)

DONT make a flat or a backward angle. You will end up with the strings way to high above the soundboard



JBASHORUN -> RE: Optimum Neck Angle (Nov. 4 2006 12:51:10)

Thanks very much Pablo and Anders!

Pablo, It would be great to see how you do the necks on your guitars. I will contact you to arrange a suitable time. Thank you!

James



DoctorX2k2 -> RE: Optimum Neck Angle (Nov. 5 2006 3:53:07)

And... that's where I screwed up [8|].

I glued the fretboard... and put the frets THEN realised I had forgotten to taper it down... now I'm stuck with a 6mm thick flat fretboard. The strings will probably be higher to the top of the guitar than expected, but I'm practicing on a cheap classical that has a 15mm gap blow the 6th string at the sound hole... I can probably go lower than that with my fretboard (I expect a 10mm). Anyways, I'll see how it turns out...



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Optimum Neck Angle (Nov. 5 2006 8:21:45)

Doctor

take of the frets, taper the fingerboard, recut the fret slots (slow and easy!!) install new frets, and thats it.[;)]



DoctorX2k2 -> RE: Optimum Neck Angle (Nov. 5 2006 13:06:07)

how can I take them off once I filed the edges? and without chipping the fingerboard? Anyways, it will have to wait... because the guitar is curing for the next 2 weeks.

Edit : also, ebony seems so dense... any tricks to taper it down without spending 6 hours?

I wouldn't really mind having a 10mm clearance though. Some people might think that higher strings have more volume and sustain and then I'd still have a low action on the fingerboard.



JBASHORUN -> RE: Optimum Neck Angle (Nov. 5 2006 19:53:43)

quote:

how can I take them off once I filed the edges? and without chipping the fingerboard?


Dr. you can use a set of these to pull out the frets:

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Fretting_supplies/Pullers,_nippers,_sizing/Fretting_Pullers.html

Just take it slow and careful to avoid chipping the fretboard.

It would seem that I will end up with a high clearance on my guitar too, but you live and learn. The next one will be better.

Jb



DoctorX2k2 -> RE: Optimum Neck Angle (Nov. 5 2006 22:28:05)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JBASHORUN

It would seem that I will end up with a high clearance on my guitar too, but you live and learn. The next one will be better.

Jb


Well... maybe I'll like it the way it is, who knows. And yes, the next one will definatly be better :) I'm quite satisfied of my achievement so far, but there are plenty of "little" things that could have gone better.

12 days left of curing... can't wait! [:D]



JBASHORUN -> RE: Optimum Neck Angle (Nov. 5 2006 22:57:13)

quote:

I'm quite satisfied of my achievement so far, but there are plenty of "little" things that could have gone better.

12 days left of curing... can't wait!



Me too. I'm just gonna be happy that it LOOKS and SOUNDS like a guitar. Anything else is a bonus. But the next one will hopefully be an improvement.

BTW, remember to upoload an audio clip of what it sounds like. I'm planning to do the same.

Jb



DoctorX2k2 -> RE: Optimum Neck Angle (Nov. 6 2006 1:42:18)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JBASHORUN

BTW, remember to upoload an audio clip of what it sounds like. I'm planning to do the same.

Jb


Yeah I will... even though I can do justice to any guitar. I've just barely started to learn seriously (even though university is taking much of my time). Sure, I knew how to play some Blink182 and Nirvana when I was 12... but I even sucked at it ahah.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Optimum Neck Angle (Nov. 6 2006 7:27:58)

quote:

I'm just gonna be happy that it LOOKS and SOUNDS like a guitar


Sorry James, but it´s a wrong attitude IMHO. Setup, stringheights above soundboard is THE most important part of a flamenco guitar. If it does not have flamenco playability, the sound doesnt really matter so much if you want to play flamenco.



JBASHORUN -> RE: Optimum Neck Angle (Nov. 6 2006 13:30:42)

quote:

quote:

I'm just gonna be happy that it LOOKS and SOUNDS like a guitar

Sorry James, but it´s a wrong attitude IMHO. Setup, stringheights above soundboard is THE most important part of a flamenco guitar. If it does not have flamenco playability, the sound doesnt really matter so much if you want to play flamenco.


I know, Anders. But my guitar isn't even going to be 100% Flamenco guitar- more like 70% Classical, 30% Flamenco. I made it really just to learn the techniques invoved. My next one will be made from Cypress, with the Spanish Style neck block, the correct setup and according to the Barbero plans. It would probably be more appropriate to upload an audio clip of that one when it is complete, but I thought it might be fun to show people what this one sounds like too. Perhaps there will be a noticeable improvement in sound between the first and the second.

Jb



DoctorX2k2 -> RE: Optimum Neck Angle (Nov. 6 2006 13:44:14)

Same here JB... except mine is supposed to be 100% flamenco [8|].
Anyways, like I said, I'm currently learning on a classical guitar with a 15mm gap, and I don't have trouble doing golpes with the middle finger... 10mm is still an improvement. Ramon's guitar has something around that too and he seems quite happy with it. I can always try to fix it later if it's really a problem. I'm a guitar newb afterall... I wont be able to fully use any guitar's potential before a darn long time [:D].



JBASHORUN -> RE: Optimum Neck Angle (Nov. 6 2006 14:24:03)

Exactly Doctor. But I think what Anders means is that its always best to try and make the guitar as perfect as possible. Its a BIG "if", but if you ever become a professional luthier, small details like that can sometimes make the difference bewteen a sellable guitar and a waste of time and money.

But IMO, as long as you learn your lessons when it comes to making your second (and third) guitars, it will all be fine.

Jb



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Optimum Neck Angle (Nov. 7 2006 7:31:47)

quote:

But I think what Anders means is that its always best to try and make the guitar as perfect as possible


No, thats not what I mean.
I talk about priority, and due to the playing style and sound you look for, the setup and stringheight above soundboard is absolutely first priority. Everything else comes next. being bracing pattern, wood or anything else.

90% of good players (and a lot of not so good like me) will say no to a flamenco guitar with a 10mm + stringheight. Never mind the sound or the looks.

James, if you are going to use the Barbero plan, read a bit about Barbero. He changed the brigde plate later on to a strip, some 2mm thick and 15mm wide tapered to some 6mm all across the soundboard. I will recommend that you do so as well. It gives some extra harmonics and make the guitar a tad more modern.

Remeber that with respect of plans, there is this idea that all builders followed just one plan. It´s totally wrong. We are all in a process, and one guitar or one plan is just a point in time.



JBASHORUN -> RE: Optimum Neck Angle (Nov. 7 2006 14:13:44)

quote:

No, thats not what I mean.
I talk about priority, and due to the playing style and sound you look for, the setup and stringheight above soundboard is absolutely first priority. Everything else comes next. being bracing pattern, wood or anything else.


Anders, I agree that string height is crucial on a Flamenco guitar. Therefore, if it can easily be corrected, then it is best to do so. In my case, I have the wrong neck angle on my guitar, which would not be easy to changed at this point. Therefore, I have opted to put it down to experience, and learn from my mistake. After all, my guitar is not really a "true" Flamenco one anyway. The next one will be better, and more suited to Flamenco.

By the way, I'd be curious to hear how your "very first guitar" turned out- was it a success? was it perfect? Or was it a matter of learning gradually? I'm not saying it wasn't a top quality guitar, I'm just honestly curious how it turned out (and what eventually happened to it).

Thanks also for your advice regarding the Barbero plans. I shall read as much as I can on the Barbero guitar, but I have to admit that my college library has limited books on luthiery. Perhaps I will also find some relevant information on the internet.

Cheers,

James



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Optimum Neck Angle (Nov. 7 2006 17:33:34)

Hi James.

There´s an article on the net about Barbero. I saw it a few years ago and cant remember where.......[8|]

My first guitar is with my dad. Its a very nice instrument and with a super playability and a lot of volume. The sides are not perfectly bend, My bending iron was very small diameter.
I made it alone in my bedroom and with VERY few tools. 1 plane, 3 chisels etc, but its nice. It has a lot of small flaws, but none serious.



JBASHORUN -> RE: Optimum Neck Angle (Nov. 7 2006 18:36:09)

Thanks Anders- I'll do a Google search for that Barbero article.

Nice to hear about your first guitar- It's always good to keep your very first guitar safe for sentimental reasons. I wish I could say that my guitar will be as close to perfection as yours was. But I CAN say that I have learned a lot in the process of making it, and will use that knowledge to make the second one even better.

Cheers,

Jb



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