RE: Appreciating real work and tallent (Full Version)

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Miguel de Maria -> RE: Appreciating real work and tallent (Sep. 28 2006 21:15:46)

superior technique? You think that flamenco guitarists have better technique than classical guitarists? Or cantaores than opera singers. This is madness! Try to play one of the Bach lute suites on the guitar and then talk about technique...



Ricardo -> RE: Appreciating real work and tallent (Sep. 28 2006 22:28:46)

quote:

You think that flamenco guitarists have better technique than classical guitarists?


Off topic, old hat, but I personally do, in general. I think a big part of having good technique is controlling rhythm. It is harder to play Bach or any music at a steady tempo, feeling the time of each note, verses achieving a pure and clean sound. I rarely hear classical guitarists who control rhythm, and the ones that do usually get unfair criticism. I don't get it. Here is a perfect example:



Some would argue he as a very close speed and technical ability to PDL and other flamenco players, and classical players might say he has a "better" tone. I personally feel this guy would have to start at the beginning and work on his technique from scratch in order to play just a small part of this piece in tempo with rhythmic feel and expression. Even the top guys getting criticized for being "machines", Williams Vidavic, Barrueco, pretty good at rhythm but always drag a note or two when it gets hairy. It breaks my heart when I hear it, because the music deserves better in most cases. When I hear it in my own playing, I want to shoot myself. I love Bach by Glen Gould better than most guitarist's interp.

To top it off, they often look down at the guy singing out of tune at a party. At least folks are clapping their hands.

Ricardo



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Appreciating real work and tallent (Sep. 28 2006 22:46:21)

Yeah, no doubt about the rhythm, no doubt. They have a different conception of it altogether.

The thing is, to play even one note in classical, it has to be perfect. You need a great deal of silence along with the notes. You aren't supposed to make any scratches or hisses, or buzzes. In flamenco that stuff is celebrated! Kind of like the raspy voices.

Second, the harmonic complexity and number of voices going on makes it ridiculous in classical. There is a huge difference between running off some fast lines and a few meaty rasgueados than playing 8 measures of contrapuntal Baroque with each line needing its own personality. The amount of information and coordination is really staggering.

Flamenco, in my view, relies on a somewhat small subset of rhythms and patterns that are recycled and used in appropriate places. In classical, you can't rely on pimami arpeggios for long stretches of time and remates that will always be there to let you catch your breath.

Not to diss flamenco at all. I just think classical is terribly difficult.



Skai -> RE: Appreciating real work and tallent (Sep. 29 2006 15:07:34)

For a moment I thought that I'd see a stream of comments that talk about classical guitar being simpler. [:D]

Classical guitar seems to have more hidden difficulties. It's not about simply having a nice tone, it's the tone colour, dynamics, phrasing, accuracy etc. Every note you play is shaped perfectly.

But of course to me, both are equally difficult in different ways. Incomparable, it would be irrelevant to compare them with one another.



Guest -> [Deleted] (Sep. 29 2006 15:23:02)

[Deleted by Admins]



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Appreciating real work and tallent (Sep. 29 2006 16:19:31)

Lionel, you're completely right that flamenco is more fun and much, much cooler! Personally, I find the freedom and improvisatory aspect in flamenco, even in "set pieces" liberating and the converse, very difficult to deal with. One of the reasons I think classical is harder (for me at least).



Ricardo -> RE: Appreciating real work and tallent (Sep. 29 2006 19:36:32)

quote:

tone colour, dynamics, phrasing, accuracy etc. Every note you play is shaped perfectly.


I feel flamenco guitar players, advanced players especially, focus on the same musical aspects. That is what it means to have a "flamenco sound". A classical player can not "shape" his phrase or notes to sound more like "flamenco" if he so chose with his superior technical ability. I feel it CAN be equally difficult for the flamenco player to shape his notes to sound more like Bream or whoever. So for me, there is equality between differing styles when it comes to these aspects. Counterpoint is tricky too, bringing out voices the right way, but as soon as you introduce the idea that you don't necessarily need total rhythmic control, the whole thing gets A LOT easier to execute. With the idea of rhythm control being important, while still focusing on phrase, tone, dynamics, accent, accuracy, etc, THEN you start realizing who is "superior" technically.

Ok ok, enough, can of worms lid back on. I might go back and delete this off topic stuff. And dust off the Chaconne again.

Ricardo



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Appreciating real work and tallent (Sep. 29 2006 19:41:38)

Please, no more of this deleting CacaDeToro. I feel we're on Fox news or something around here. Richard, I am so down with hearing you play the Chaconne. Although I think we have a better chance of hearing Grisha get on it than you so far... :)



Ron.M -> RE: Appreciating real work and tallent (Sep. 29 2006 20:13:21)

Yeah...Classical playing is really difficult.
Although I've never done it myself, I can really appreciate watching those guys play.
Really fiddly stuff that must take heaps of practise, like Mike said..no little extraneous squeaks and noises etc.
When I was at the Dundee Festival to see Gerardo, there were heaps of them around and I remember sitting down to listen to this young girl sitting in the hallway, maybe early twenties play this wonderful stuff with great tone and style.
I told her that it was just like listening to John Williams and she just laughed shyly and said she had only been playing about 5 years and just did it as a hobby. (Although a very passionate hobby!)

Myself, I couldn't be bothered with that, I really just like the rough sound and tone of the Flamenco guitar, whether it's simple or complicated.

A lot of times the "throw it in the swamp" stuff turns me on more than the virtuoso stuff..[:D]

Just a personal view though.

cheers

Ron



koella -> RE: Appreciating real work and tallent (Sep. 29 2006 21:27:41)

Classical guitar can be extremely difficult.
I would say, try some Turina or Castelnuova-Tedesco.
They are really left hand killers. I hate them.
Those Bach pieces weren't meant for the guitar in the first place, of course.

That's what I like about flamenco guitar. It's composed by people who are gonna play the stuff themselves. They now the instrument. They try to use there own capabilities. They don't take a pencil and paper and write down some fancy composition that's hard to play only because it doesn't match the specific guitar technique.



Ricardo -> RE: Appreciating real work and tallent (Sep. 30 2006 0:20:59)

Hey are you trying to say flamenco guitar is EASIER? Ha, just kidding, I know EXACTLY what you are saying man. Idiomatic for the instrument. When I heard flamenco guitar the first time, I honestly felt like THAT was the music the guitar was made for.

Ricardo



ToddK -> RE: Appreciating real work and tallent (Sep. 30 2006 2:05:46)

quote:

THAT was the music the guitar was made for.


Preeeeeeeecisely!!![;)]



XXX -> RE: Appreciating real work and tallent (Sep. 30 2006 9:34:57)

quote:

THAT was the music the guitar was made for.


I think even classcial guitarists would confirm that. And for most other "normal" people they would also feel the same. It has to do with the rythmic side of flamenco and guitar. Or did you ever heard a cajon or bongo in classical [8D]?



koella -> RE: Appreciating real work and tallent (Sep. 30 2006 10:35:21)

Ricardo and Todd thanks you agreed with me.



XXX -> RE: Appreciating real work and tallent / LH, RH (Sep. 30 2006 12:40:10)

Ps: I know a classical guy, his LH is ridiculous. But his RH is weak compared to mine. I always thought mixing our hands would be so cool. Maybe this is generalizeable for flamenco/classical. Whatever.



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Appreciating real work and tallent (Sep. 30 2006 16:05:53)

You know a guy who plays classical...nice sample size.



koella -> RE: Appreciating real work and tallent (Sep. 30 2006 16:50:45)

[:D]



XXX -> RE: Appreciating real work and tallent (Sep. 30 2006 18:01:06)

lol mig, you have to stop reading only the first sentence of my posts [:D]. you dont get the meaning this way, though if you're extremely smart you can consider also the title (LH/RH)!
No, but seriously now: would you please stop those single-line-BS-disses? They have nothing to do with any useful content. The last one wasnt better either, even contradictive to my post. I have nothing against jokes, you know that. I can take much. But if it gets only personal and 0 content, then its not ok anymore. I didnt say anything about your arrogant tone towards Florian, but now sadly it seems necessary to repeat his words to you again or otherwise you will just go on and on: "i can be an a*shole too".



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