New Style v Old Style (Full Version)

Foro Flamenco: http://www.foroflamenco.com/
- Discussions: http://www.foroflamenco.com/default.asp?catApp=0
- - General: http://www.foroflamenco.com/in_forum.asp?forumid=13
- - - New Style v Old Style: http://www.foroflamenco.com/fb.asp?m=43433



Message


Gecko -> New Style v Old Style (Sep. 8 2006 10:54:00)

Lately, here and in other sources I have, I have been coming across references to "New Style" and "Old Style" playing/players. New Style, as used in this context, does not seem to be referring to nuevo-flamenco (Ottmar, Kings, Cook, etc), but to a new style of traditional flamenco.

I would appreciate it if anyone could enlighten me by summarizing some of the principal differences between new and old style.




JBASHORUN -> RE: New Style v Old Style (Sep. 8 2006 16:49:31)

The more Flamenco I listen to, the easier I find it to tell "modern" and "traditional" apart. That said, I'm not sure how I can tell them apart, I just seem to know somehow.

But for a detailed breakdown of the characteristics of each, I think Ricardo would be the person to ask, if he has time to comment on it.

Jb

BTW, if anyone can provide more detail on the differences between the "Jerez sound", "Madrid sound", "Moron sound" and any other, I'd also be interested to hear that.




buleria -> RE: New Style v Old Style (Sep. 8 2006 18:29:25)

Old style is for people who believe that nothing good happened in flamenco after about 1970 - new style is for people who do not think that flamenco should become some fossilized art form.

Only joking but I have grave fears about one of those endless puro/nuevo discussions that crop up every once in a while!!

Karenanne




duende -> RE: New Style v Old Style (Sep. 8 2006 18:42:24)

aah flamenco is not bad just cause it´s recorded in the 50´s.. and nore is it any
better just because it´s recorded in the 90s or 2006.

if it´s good it´s good.




buleria -> RE: New Style v Old Style (Sep. 8 2006 18:49:37)

Great, just what I need when I'm in a bad mood - somebody's opinion I totally agree with - and a fellow Pitingo fan to boot!! Karenanne
ps cause bad mood to be found under off topic!!




buleria -> RE: New Style v Old Style (Sep. 8 2006 18:50:20)

or even cause OF bad mood .. grammar gone to pot too!




Gecko -> RE: New Style v Old Style (Sep. 8 2006 20:34:31)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JBASHORUN

BTW, if anyone can provide more detail on the differences between the "Jerez sound", "Madrid sound", "Moron sound"and any other, I'd also be interested to hear that.


I saw something just in the past day or so referencing a "Moron sound." Honest to God I thought the poster was just being hostile, or perhaps he had heard my attempt at playing in compas. [:)]




Ron.M -> RE: New Style v Old Style (Sep. 8 2006 21:08:51)

quote:

The more Flamenco I listen to, the easier I find it to tell "modern" and "traditional" apart. That said, I'm not sure how I can tell them apart, I just seem to know somehow.


Bash,
It's all good!
The new and the old.
With me. it all really depends if you're being sincere or not...
Or just patching in to a formulaic means of expression...
Flamenco guitar is very Organic IMO...
It's just about lots of little things done by a lot of players over time... and some of them have stuck, giving us the Flamenco guitar we know today.
In that way that's how Flamenco guitar is so different from Classical (although it requires the same discipline ...and more!)
It's more akin to Blues, Jazz, Rock....but IMO, some folk can treat it with (what I think is) a bit of disrespect.
I don't like that kind of playing myself.

For me...I guess I love that kind of playing where you feel the performer is not just playing..but practically tastes the stuff in the mouth.
That really gets me!

There are lots of players who do that..
Some with a heap of technical ability ...some without...

I love it when I hear it!

It's the sound....[:D]


cheers

Ron




JBASHORUN -> RE: New Style v Old Style (Sep. 9 2006 12:18:24)

I see what you mean Ron.

But I think the easiest way to tell classical guitar and flamenco guitar apart is the Rasgueados. One uses them and the other usually doesn't. Compas is probably the other give-away, but thats not so easy to spot for the casual listener.

I also assume we are talking about "new flamenco" as in modern flamenco, and NOT "Nuevo" Flamenco. Modern flamenco is sometimes given away by its use of instruments- for example Gerardo Nunez' use of saxophones and other non-traditional instruments. Correct if thats wrong.

But there are more subtle differences, I believe, and its these that I have trouble explaining.

Personally I like both modern and traditional Flamenco, but lately I have been more interested in the traditional stuff.

Cheers,

Jb




Ricardo -> RE: New Style v Old Style (Sep. 9 2006 14:24:40)

The MAIN differences between traditional/modern/Moron/Jerez/Extremadura/etc..., is RHYTHM. Subtle nuances of the rhythm (interms of guitar style, not singing necessarily though that is part of it too). To be a good aficionado is to be in tune to those subtleties and recognize those differences when heard. If the guitarist uses quite abit of synchopation in his playing, you can charatcterize his playing as modern, and even guess his/her age. Likewise, hearing certain rhythmic phrasing can give away the guitarist's hometown.

Some breakdown and example would be time consuming, hope this helps.

Ricardo




Florian -> RE: New Style v Old Style (Sep. 9 2006 16:49:27)

also there used to be a clearer distinction between traditional and new , madrid and jerez sound but now its getting harder and harder to tell because everyne takes ideas they like from everyone else.

eg, i hear normally traditional players using modern modes and scales, and vice versa.

but in the end it dosent really matter what we call it , we either like it or not.

for me the way a player plays a buleria rythm section, paints the clearest picture of theyr taste. infact, play me your buleria rithm and i rekon i could guess who u listen too and who u like, or mibe not exactly but i could get pretty close to it.




Ron.M -> RE: New Style v Old Style (Sep. 9 2006 20:09:33)

quote:

now its getting harder and harder to tell because everyne takes ideas they like from everyone else.

Absolutely Florian, everyone takes ideas from everybody else..
Like a sort of Flamenco "entropy", where everything levels out into a fantastically played, but fairly bland experience.
I'm speaking really of solo guitar here.

"Ordinary" Flamenco (cante, guitar, baile) has always been good.

PdL happened on the bigger world almost 40 years ago now....
He's dominated the scene since, like Sabicas before him, when everybody said that there will never be a Flamenco guitarist like him.

Think Flo...40 years!
Even before you were born.

The solo guitar world is in need of a new innovator IMO..
I thought Diego del Morao might have been that person...but...
Still, he's young....still got plenty time...so who knows?

The only thing I can say is....if I see or hear yet another amateur rendition of "Entre Dos Aguas"...I'll shoot myself! [:D][:D][:D]

cheers

Ron




Ricardo -> RE: New Style v Old Style (Sep. 9 2006 22:22:45)

For the record there HAVE been innovations, but Paco de Lucia for one has evolved his own playing along with them. At certain points, the vanguard was Tomatito, then Gerardo, Riqueni, Canizares, Amigo, etc, but everyone else either sticks to their personal style, or incorporates the new ideas. Paco incorporates and tries to add his own touch or forward movement. I personally dont' feel there NEEDS to be a new innovator at this time. And also for the record, there has not been a major innovator in flamenco, that was not WELL versed in the traditional style and repertoire. Even lately, Tomatito recorded Montoya's Rondena (at least some falsetas), Gerardo did Impetu by Escudero.

A NEW innovator will have to be well versed in A LOT of history and repertoire. That is a tall order for a youngster. I was with Javier Conde in Spain this summer. He knocked out a perfect rendition of PDL's doblan companas. So he is off to a good start getting the base. But in 10 years we will see where he is at.

Ricardo




Florian -> RE: New Style v Old Style (Sep. 10 2006 2:56:10)

theres not alot of room left atm for standing up "clearly" above the rest atm.

the next innovator that would have to be pretty much super human, cause even the best technique " eg Jeronimo" dosent guarantee anything.


flamenco guitar is the fastest growing and developing style imo cause everyone knows that to stand out u have to be even better than what was once considered brilliant.

what was once considered brilliant is this days the minimum requirements for a recording guitarist in Spain.

take this forum for example , in the audio section, what used to impress us 5 years ago has changed alot today.




PacoPaella -> RE: New Style v Old Style (Sep. 10 2006 9:34:23)

The ironic thing is that guitarists, while pushing each other to new levels of technical skill, tend to lose ground contact imho. Solo albums seem to be recorded from guitarists to other guitarists because when i talk to "normal" auditory they have lost understanding and interest long ago when it comes to super modern hyper fast scales over the top everything recordings. I am not talking about the aficionados in Andalucia (even though i am pretty sure they arent so much into this pure technical brilliancy either) but about normal people who would go to a flamenco concert/show here. The showing off of some guitarists to top other guitarists hasnt much to do with music any more, and usually when people say "what the heck is that...?" they label it...New Style.[:D]




Gummy -> RE: New Style v Old Style (Sep. 10 2006 12:04:27)

It happens in other music too. In the late 80's there was a boom in guitar shredders. They got very technical and the people enjoying the music shifted from the average listener to mostly guitar fans and guitarists. Lately, rock type music has very little technical expertise and the guitar has shifted in harder music at least, to being more of a percussive instrument. Maybe with flamenco, we'll see less focus on the guitar virtuoso stuff and more focus on rhythm/cante?




duende -> RE: New Style v Old Style (Sep. 10 2006 17:50:27)

don´t worrie.. soon we´ll have the "grunge" movment of flamenco.

what would that be like? a mix of Morón and Jerez maybe?..

Diego Del Gastor meets Moraito, with a slight touch of what? ..Paco Cepero?




Ron.M -> RE: New Style v Old Style (Sep. 10 2006 20:52:27)

I think, like all great developments in everything..
It will be something that takes us all by surprise.
Something that is not merely an extension from what's gone before.
But something that takes a right-angled turn and will seem so cool and obvious, that once you've heard it, you'll wonder why no-one ever thought about it before.
That's the way all major changes take place IMO.

cheers

Ron




koella -> RE: New Style v Old Style (Sep. 10 2006 20:55:42)

Hopefully it will be something without soprano-sax or fretless bass[:D]




aloysius -> RE: New Style v Old Style (Sep. 12 2006 2:09:43)

These are some of my own thoughts on differences between regional styles:

Jerez: Lots of space. Cante accompaniment is considered the highest form of art in Jerez, and a good accompanist will leave a lot of space. Also a love of the "pure" flamenco sound, very difficult to define, one aspect is always staying very close to the tonal centre.

Moron: Long, flowing Moorish sounding thumb lines which keep threatening to resolve but instead keep going, when the final resolution comes there is a lot of impact. In bulerias, lots of changes to major and minor modalities.

Sevilla: Here I believe the dancers have a big influence - most major guitarists here spend many years as dance accompanists and many of Sevilla's best players are happy to stay purely in that role (e.g. Paco Jarana, Paco Arriaga etc.). This influences the playing style in aspects such as choice of Rasgueo. Harmonically somewhere between harmonically simple Jerez and harmonically complex Madrid.

Madrid: Harmonically complex, no holds barred. Use of symmetric scales (whole-tone scale, diminished scale). Some modulation. Cano roto style is probably different to other regions of Madrid, but I don't really know enough to say. Certainly recent "Cano roto" CD releases seem to have a common sound (El Viejin, Ramon Jimenez, Jesus del Rosario) whereas Jeronimo for instance sounds quite different - I've never spent much time in Madrid but maybe someone who has can shed some light on this.

- Aloysius




Guest -> [Deleted] (May 18 2007 6:54:05)

[Deleted by Admins]




gato -> RE: New Style v Old Style (Jun. 12 2007 2:22:20)

Yes, romerito, we all have to remember that at the advent of the recording industry every aspect of the flamenco changed; the record companies exert their controll wherever it's necessary to maintain the industry, so after that change, there tends to be a certain amount of exerted controll if artists are involved with the recording industry unlike before when influences were more innocent. Artists are responsible to the decisions of the industry.

And subsequently we are not talking major artists actual influences and ablilites, but what was decided for us by the industry. It's a grand illusion.

That's why it's important to see the local artists in your area as well as other areas, and where they are not in a position to listen to the executives. it's a totally different set of circumstances.

I reccomend that we all try to get out and play, wherever we can, even if not for hire or with a company, for that is the spirit and the true calling of the flamenco. That is the difference that takes local effort.

Perhaps wether you are talking pure/modern flamenco, it is your calling to represent that choice as an artist, until you get involved with 'big money.' After that, the artist does what he is told.

But, if the illusion is real for you, and you rely on cd, and major concerts for your information, who is to know?




gato -> RE: New Style v Old Style (Jun. 13 2007 8:31:53)

I've read in an interview, that the flamenco faces a dillema, in that it's no longer considered a folk art, that there are fewer people getting together for private partys, it's less attainable without the aspect of professionalism, and that it's hurting the validity of the artform. And it's a wonder that it didn't happen sooner, though in my area, California, the local scene is flourishing. That great monolith, the record company, and it's way of doing business with the intensive marketing approaches, and the great enemy, stardom, are probably, and in my opinion, the cause.

Fewer and fewer people consider themselves worthy enough to perform, and just give up, and that beautiful and colorful past that the flamenco is notorious for, is fading, and yet something has got to save the purity of the artform without stifeling it's growth and moderisation. Quite a stagnant era we live in as for the validity and power of the flamenco as a living classic.

And I think that it has to start with the local moovement, and somehow if people can see the great power of expression that they posess as local performers on the small scale it can bring the equasion back in to balance, and then, we would have to see. But as I always say it (flamenco) can't be spoon fed to the masses by corperate exploitation, with out the smaller scale scenes and expect to survive, without loosing all to much of it's form and tradition that we love so much.




val -> [Deleted] (Jul. 19 2007 2:14:45)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Nov. 8 2010 21:25:34




TANúñez -> RE: New Style v Old Style (Jul. 19 2007 3:43:55)

Romerito, your a flamenco thread archeologist. This thread had been long gone and buried in the temple of endless discussions. [:D]

In the words of the great Henrik Håkansson, "If it's good, it's good."




Guest -> [Deleted] (Jul. 19 2007 5:03:39)

[Deleted by Admins]




Ailsa -> RE: New Style v Old Style (Jul. 19 2007 9:33:09)

quote:

ORIGINAL: val

I later started to learn to dance and it was drummed into us in class that "THE SONG IS EVERYTHING" - dance and guitar are incidental. We're taught how the dance fits around the singer. The guitarist of course, has to accommodate both!



That's an interesting point val - sounds like you have a great teacher. So many just don't mention the song at all.

I was just wondering about this last night as I'm going to be dancing soon with a new singer. I've only worked before with people I know well and highly choreographed dances which did fit around the song. As I don't really know this guy's work yet, I was thinking - what if I call some footwork right in the middle of his letra? Not intentionally of course! What if I speed up for dramatic effect? I mean who would the poor guitarist follow?

Any suggestions how this works from guitarists who work with singers and dancers?

Ailsa




Haithamflamenco -> RE: New Style v Old Style (Jul. 20 2007 8:45:41)

for me " ottmar, jesse cock and gypsy kings" are very light type of flamenco manily based of rumbas 4/4 keys,

i conceder the flamenco is devided in tow three parts,

40 to 60s, sabicas, nino ricardo, diego del gastor etc age,

70 to 90s, paco de lucia, tomatito, moraito, manolo salucar, pep habichulea etc age,

90 to now, vicente amigo,juan diego,juan carmona, manolo franco, paco serrano etc,

i felt it like this, three generations,

i have a close friend his is so first generation, he just hate the third generation of flamenco and he dont respect vicente amigo because as he said that he involved too much blue in jazz in his music,

its always big problem and argument every time we play togother, hahaha[:D]




Page: [1]

Valid CSS!




Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET