Thoughts on this guitar? (Full Version)

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DoctorX2k2 -> Thoughts on this guitar? (Aug. 12 2006 14:07:54)

Hello,

I've posted a thread a month ago about a good flamenco guitar for beginners. I got pointed out to the Yamaha CG171SF but as U.S. retailers wont ship Yamaha products to Canada, I've contacted some dealers in my area. Well... let's say their prices are really not close to the U.S. prices. If I could get one shipped, I'd have it for 400CAN$, the dealers I've contacted sell it for 550CAN$ + taxes, so about 615$.

So I came accross this guitar on a US retailer willing to ship it to Canada :
http://www.lucidaguitars.com/Picado.586.0.html
It would be about 740$CAN. So for 125$ more than the Yamaha, I'd get solid wood cypress back and sides. Does any of you have had the chance to play this guitar? Any feedbacks, inputs, comments?

Regards



bernd -> RE: Thoughts on this guitar? (Aug. 12 2006 15:42:52)

Hi Doc,

I´m living in Germany where this guitar is not present in the market. Following your link I see this dealer is listing some really irrelevant features (golden lyra tuners, inlaid rosette, headstock overlay etc.) and leaves out some important points referring to playability like scale length, width at nut, action at bridge etc. Maybe this is a typical American way. By my impression this dealer doesn´t know anything about flamenco guitars. Maybe it´s good one but I wouldn´t buy a guitar from such a dealer.

Saludos
Bernd



DoctorX2k2 -> RE: Thoughts on this guitar? (Aug. 12 2006 16:16:55)

Well, according to reviews on this site : http://reviews.harmony-central.com/reviews/Guitar/product/Lucida+Artista/LG-797+Picado/10/1 , people seem to say that the action is very low and it seems to be a good price/quality bargain.



JBASHORUN -> RE: Thoughts on this guitar? (Aug. 12 2006 16:37:54)

You have to take Harmony Central reviews with a grain of salt. Many of the reviewers there don't know a Conde from a Con. Its free advice, and worth every penny. Test one of the guitars before buying if you can to give you some idea.

Jb



Cepa Andaluza -> RE: Thoughts on this guitar? (Aug. 12 2006 16:46:03)

Hello

JBASHORUN Is right ..

u cant Know The Guitar only if you have try it .. For example i have Before Ricardo sanchis Carpio 1fextra 2005 blanca .. first i didnt Know its Good Guitar but when i try it i Know Now how is This Guitar strong and have Nice sound ..

so my advice for you to try it Before .. Olso There is some other Great Guitars for That money .. so Try to play on That Guitar


Thanx alot

Mohammad



DoctorX2k2 -> RE: Thoughts on this guitar? (Aug. 13 2006 1:17:09)

The problem is mostly the lack of retailers selling flamenco guitars in my area... the only guitar I can actually try before buying is the Yamaha CG171SF. Then again, they don't have it in stock, so they would probably order just one so I'll have nothing to compare it with. It seems that buying a Flamenco guitar in Canada is a real pain...



Ramón -> RE: Thoughts on this guitar? (Aug. 13 2006 1:45:21)

When I first started playing and 'moved up' a bit, I got a Lucida 797 - back when they were like $395US.

After 'moving up' more and more, I can now appreciate just how unimpressed I am with this guitar; little volume, projection, very hard to play (and I had this Lucida 'set up')......

Now again, this was MY guitar, and guitars like this can very damatically! You could play 20 in a room, and find junk to a gem....maybe.

I would say that, for the money, the reviews I've seen on the Yamaha - with some upgrades/setup by SOMEONE WHO KNOWS WHAT THEY ARE DOING, would be, it seems, hard to beat. I see them go on eBay for just over $200 at times!!

BTW...After the Lucida, I moved up to a Luis Sevillano (Mexican) that impresses even one of my teachers, and he accompanied and toured for 27 years! I'm selling it, but it's like $650, so that's way more than you want to spend, so for the money, the Yamaha seems like a good choice - and it will always re-sell.

My 2 cents...

RH



chinito -> RE: Thoughts on this guitar? (Aug. 13 2006 2:17:34)

Hiya Doc,

I've got a Lucida Picado and think it's a decent guitar for the money. I was looking for a backup guitar and the Picado was in my price range at the time. I've had her for a couple of years and have been pleasantly surprised at the quality of sound. She's very bright and leans towards the "modern" end of the flamenco spectrum.

On the downside: The neck is a bit chunky, but she's definitely playable and fairly loud. I would also like to change the tuners for something with a bit more finesse. All in all these negatives weren't enough to make me unhappy with the guitar as a whole.

I wouldn't say it could compete with a Conde, but I'm very satisfied with this guitar. But hey, maybe I got lucky and found a nice one. I even found the guitar on EBay of all places. Mine was purchased new, but you can also find second-hand ones on EBay pretty frequently.

-Jake.



XXX -> RE: Thoughts on this guitar? (Aug. 13 2006 10:16:53)

Doc, do you want to make your decision on which guitar to buy, depend on which dealer is "willing to ship to Canada"? From what I heard from friends about this guitar and what bernd for example said, I wouldnt buy this one here. I dont know which possibilities you got in Canada, maybe putting an ad in newspaper or music magazine wouldnt be too bad? If there is really no single flamenco guitar in your area which you could try out, you still can goto ebay. Dont know how much shipping costs, but maybe you can also send the Lucida back, if you dont like it. But i can almost guarantee you, that the sound will be nowhere near the CDs. Because of lack of money, i searched 6 months to find the guitar i want.



JBASHORUN -> RE: Thoughts on this guitar? (Aug. 13 2006 10:22:51)

Doc,

IMO the best thing to do is to save up a bit more money. Maybe enough for a Sanchis Carpio, a Burguet or one of Anders' guitars. Then book a week long holiday in Spain and try out all the guitars on your list. Then simply choose the one you like best. If you can't afford to do this, then just buy the Yamaha, but be prepared for the fact that NO GUITAR under £500 will sound exactly like Paco De Lucia's Conde.

Jb



Gecko -> RE: Thoughts on this guitar? (Aug. 13 2006 13:58:37)

The LG 797 was my first flamenco guitar. I was a very good instrument. Replaced the plastic saddle with bone and it helped the sound substantially. I just sold it a few weeks ago. Had you have known then.... Oh well.



DoctorX2k2 -> RE: Thoughts on this guitar? (Aug. 13 2006 14:15:45)

Alright, I guess I'll pass on buying a flamenco guitar for a while... darn :(

I can't get a Yamaha from the U.S. simply because of the manufacturer's rules on imports so Yamaha USA doesn't compete with Yamaha Canada. So either it will be caught at the border and sent back to dealer, or I'll pay huge taxes and duty. As for eBay... well 2 things itches me. Guitar condition and availability. Right now, I can only see one CG171SF on eBay and it only ships into the US.

Right now, I'm a student with not much money. I got an accoustic guitar and an old and cheap Aria classical guitar with such a dull sound it annoys me. So I'm in a big dilemma... pay 615$ for a Yamaha and pay for a new setup (I don't have a clue of how much that would cost me) or practice for a very long time on that lousy guitar I have until I earn enough to buy a greater guitar worth around 3000$US?



JBASHORUN -> RE: Thoughts on this guitar? (Aug. 13 2006 14:39:55)

quote:

So I'm in a big dilemma... pay 615$ for a Yamaha and pay for a new setup (I don't have a clue of how much that would cost me) or practice for a very long time on that lousy guitar I have until I earn enough to buy a greater guitar worth around 3000$US?


Dude, 615 Canadian Dollars is about £290. I payed £225 for my yamaha, and that was the best price in this country (UK) I could find. £290 is only about £70 more than that, and as far as Flamenco guitars go, its peanuts. £300 for a Flamenco guitar is nothing at all. You don't get sh*t in the guitar world for £300 these days. Your decision comes down to whether you're in a hurry or not... If you think it won't be for another 5, 10 or 15 years before you can afford a much better guitar, then I'd just buy the Yamaha. The Yamaha is an okay guitar. nothing special, but for £300 its a probably the best you'll get. Try it first if you can, then buy it, and accept the fact that it won't be perfect. But for a beginner, or someone who can't afford a mid-range guitar, it is probably ideal. if you test the yamaha first, and don't like it, then you can always go for the Lucida Picado instead by process of elimination.


Jb

PS: I own the Yamaha- its not as good as a Conde, but it sure beats my cheap classical!!!



Gummy -> RE: Thoughts on this guitar? (Aug. 13 2006 14:52:56)

I got a yamaha through mail order and had no problems with the guitar. No adjustments were necessary. It sounds fine and looks great. I'd keep looking for a store that will ship one to you. Maybe you should do a road trip across the border to a Guitar Center or some similar store. They have them for 350.00 US.
Rod



JBASHORUN -> RE: Thoughts on this guitar? (Aug. 13 2006 15:42:18)

quote:

Maybe you should do a road trip across the border to a Guitar Center or some similar store.


Good idea. Find the nearest American city to where you live in Canada. Then look in the Yellow Pages/telephone directory to find out all the guitar stores in that city. Then phone them and ask for a quote on the Yamaha, and order the cheapest. When it arrives at the store you can pop across the border and pick it up in person. It would only cost you the price of a return bus/coach/train ticket, and could be done in a single weekend. Just make sure the store allows collections. Thats if you really don't wanna pay the Canadian price...

Jb



DoctorX2k2 -> RE: Thoughts on this guitar? (Aug. 13 2006 15:45:41)

JB... I know it's not much compared with most flamenco guitars... I'm not comparing with better guitars, I'm comparing with my current wallet ;)

The thing is...615$ right now would hurt my wallet. I play online poker part time to make money and if I take out 615$ out of my current bankroll, I'll have to drop to a lower limit and that will eat my futur gains by more than 50%. I just did the maths and I guess I'll definatly wait. I'd have to catch-up and that is worth 4000$US over only 4 months according to my statistics. On the other hand, if I wait until summer 07, I should have around 24KUS$ to spare being conservative in my estimates. So I'll keep practicing on my dull sounding guitar instead of buying a guitar I'll be selling in a year or two.



JBASHORUN -> RE: Thoughts on this guitar? (Aug. 13 2006 15:55:24)

quote:

On the other hand, if I wait until summer 07, I should have around 24KUS$ to spare being conservative in my estimates. So I'll keep practicing on my dull sounding guitar instead of buying a guitar I'll be selling in a year or two.


No contest. If you'll have 24k soon you don't really need a Yamaha. Try a Conde Hermanos or one of Anders' guitars in a year's time. But remember, its always wise to try before buying! ;o)

Jb



DoctorX2k2 -> RE: Thoughts on this guitar? (Aug. 13 2006 16:02:49)

The only way would be to travel to Spain I guess... but there is a shop selling Ramirez guitars nearby.



XXX -> RE: Thoughts on this guitar? (Aug. 13 2006 16:03:26)

You make 24K in a year? Or is it only an estimation? I also play online poker, but i dont make 24K! Maximum 100€ per month.



JBASHORUN -> RE: Thoughts on this guitar? (Aug. 13 2006 16:07:48)

quote:

The only way would be to travel to Spain I guess... but there is a shop selling Ramirez guitars nearby.


Given the choice between the two, I would definitely go to Spain. There are many more luthiers there than just Ramirez, and probably many that are better. remember, you want "the perfect guitar" not "whatever you can get your hands on". plus, if you time it right, you could also go to the Jerez festival.

Jb

PS: there are one or 2 good luthiers based in Canada too, I heard.



DoctorX2k2 -> RE: Thoughts on this guitar? (Aug. 13 2006 16:45:11)

Canadian luthiers that build flamenco guitars? O_o.

All I could find was steel string accoustic guitar luthiers...



JBASHORUN -> RE: Thoughts on this guitar? (Aug. 13 2006 16:50:46)

quote:

Canadian luthiers that build flamenco guitars? O_o.

All I could find was steel string accoustic guitar luthiers...


Here's a list of Canadian luthiers:

http://www.guitarassociation.org/cdn_luthiers_2.php

Jeff Sigurdson, in particular has reputation for making good Flamenco guitars:

http://www.sigurdsonguitars.com/


Jb



DoctorX2k2 -> RE: Thoughts on this guitar? (Aug. 13 2006 18:56:03)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deniz

You make 24K in a year? Or is it only an estimation? I also play online poker, but i dont make 24K! Maximum 100€ per month.



Well... I started playing seriously back in April with 100$ investment. I'm now sitting at 3500$. I play about 15 hours a week for about 6600 hands total. My average winning is 4 big bets/100 hands playing NL50, that's 4$/100 hands, so 80$ a week from Poker. Add 100$ rakebacks a week. Plus montly bonus of 250$. So around 900$ a month at NL50. But now, my bankroll is high enough to play NL100... which will allow me to unlock deposit bonuses faster on different site, and earn 165$ rakebacks a week instead of 100$.

My estimates are based on a winning rate of 2 big bets/100 hands instead of 4. Also, my estimates are based on the fact that I currently play 3 tables at a time... but I used to play 7 at a time, which means more rakebacks, but my game suffered a bit from July (lost 600$ in a week) so I dropped to 3 tables.

Basicly, my estimates involve bonuses, rakebacks, and winnings on a certain limit. I now have the bankroll to play NL100... and if everything goes as planned, I should be playing NL200 in November and NL400 in February. The higher the limit, the higher the rakebacks, the higher the winnings (if the rate stays good, which is 2big bets/100 hands like I said), and the faster bonuses clear... so my salary should make a jump from 900$ a month to 3400$ a month in April 07. That's if everything goes well... but as I told you, my winning rate over 90 000 hands is 4 big bets and my estimations are based on 3 tables at a rate of 2 big bets because the difficulty should go up.



DoctorX2k2 -> RE: Thoughts on this guitar? (Aug. 16 2006 15:40:57)

Well...


after all, I'm thinking about jumping onto the guitarmaking bandwagon. Ramon and lukemoon creations really inspired me and I'd like to give it a shot. I looked at the tools I have access to and I was quite surprised. I currently have :

-Chisels kit
-Router with bit kits and bearings
-Tons of clamps
-Various types of Saws
-Sanding Belt
-Drill Press
-Jig Saws
-Scrapers
-Humidifier
-Deshumidifier

I'm thinking about buying a LMII serviced flamenco kit. Mainly because I only have 15 hours of class this semester and no laboratories, plus free Fridays and week-ends, which would give me a lot of spare time to work on this project.



JBASHORUN -> RE: Thoughts on this guitar? (Aug. 16 2006 15:52:48)

quote:

I'm thinking about jumping onto the guitarmaking bandwagon.


Go for it. But I would recommend buying/hiring a couple of books first to find out exactly what needs to be done. The kit guitars are a good way to go, and will save you some work. But be prepared for the fact that you might need to splash out on extra tools as you go along... such as planes. Although building a guitar isn't the best decision if your finances are tight ATM.

Jb



DoctorX2k2 -> RE: Thoughts on this guitar? (Aug. 16 2006 15:55:23)

Oh I forgot to mention I had planes ;)

Yeah I agree it's not the best decision on a tight budget, especially if I gotta buy tools on the way, but I'm giving myself 5-6 months to complete the project. Meanwhile, I'll also earn money on the way, enough to buy what I need/

What books do you recommand though?

Regards



JBASHORUN -> RE: Thoughts on this guitar? (Aug. 16 2006 16:08:43)

You might want to allow slightly longer than 5-6 months, if its your first guitar and you're not working on it full time. But I suppose buying a kit will cut down the time-scale somewhat, so it all depends on how skilled you are at woodwork and much work you put in.

If you're new to woodwork, and its your first guitar, then be prepared to make a few mistakes. And mistakes can often cost money.

One tool you probably won't have is the heat-bending iron to bend the ribs (sides), and these are quite expensive too. but once you read into the processes/techniques involved, you'll get a better idea of exactly what is needed.

I would recommend Roy Courtnall's book "Making Master Guitars":

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0709048092/sr=8-1/qid=1155743937/ref=sr_1_1/002-5489859-1981667?ie=UTF8

Its pricey, but very informative. If you can't afford that book, try renting it from a library. Or, I believe Lukemoon recommended a cheaper alternative in his other thread.

Good luck!

Jb



DoctorX2k2 -> RE: Thoughts on this guitar? (Aug. 16 2006 16:41:54)

Sides are already bent in the serviced kit. A bending Iron will come a lot later, if I decide to make a few more guitars.

I'm not entirely new to woodwork, but I'm not experienced either... I have basic ideas but I need a few good books on the topic.

Making Master Guitars is 105$CAN from Amazon.ca ... it's the Aug31 2006 edition. I might buy it, but I'll try to read some other cheaper stuff for now.
Do you know if the "Build a Guitar" with Robbie O'Brien based on LMII kits is any good? Lukemoon's book is affordable as well. What about this one : Guitarmaking: Tradition and Technology? Any good? http://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/0811806405/sr=8-1/qid=1155746419/ref=sr_1_1/701-6598625-4021129?ie=UTF8&s=gateway

There are also books that are not yet released :
http://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/1402720602/sr=8-3/qid=1155746293/ref=sr_1_3/701-6598625-4021129?ie=UTF8&s=gateway
http://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/1861084099/sr=8-7/qid=1155746293/ref=sr_1_7/701-6598625-4021129?ie=UTF8&s=gateway



JBASHORUN -> RE: Thoughts on this guitar? (Aug. 16 2006 17:09:25)

Its very hard to tell whether a book is of any use unless you've actually read it. The book I recommended is over 100 dollars, as you said, but I found it very helpful. That said, I did not buy it- I rented it from the library. I would recommend that you do the same. Most public or college libraries offer an ordering service, where they will buy (or loan from another library) the book/s you require. I would suggest that you use this facility. And don't just use one book- use several (as some miss out on things that others include).

If you have basic woodwork skills already, then your job will be much easier.

Jb



Ramin -> RE: Thoughts on this guitar? (Aug. 16 2006 18:58:05)

Doc,

Where abouts in Canada do you live? I know of this luthier in BC who is making a name for himself by selling good quality hand-made flamenco/classical guitars for as low as $1000. I have a friend who bought one for $850 and had it shipped to Toronto. He is very very happy with the guitar. You may want to check that out.

Ramin



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