Becoming an expert guitarist. (Full Version)

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JasonM -> Becoming an expert guitarist. (Aug. 8 2006 16:59:00)

Hey folks,

Since we all aspire to become better players (or luthiers),and we recently talked a little about this subject earlier, I wanted to share some points from an article I read about "expert minds" in this months issue of Scientific American[8|]. Mabey some of you caught it, but the article talks about the differences between novice players of chess and the thinking patterns of grandmasters, how and why they become experts, and how this relates to experts in other areas like music.

The first point is that grandmasters and musicians draw on a vast repository of structured knowledge , rather than having an advantage of analysis in comparison to a novice. Some musicians can play a score of music back after only hearing it once. Likewise, a chess master can recall all the positions in a chess game after examining it for a few seconds. This ability is directly correlated with a chess player's rating. However, a grandmaster can not recall the positions of the pieces any better than a novice can if they are randomly placed on the board.
The idea is that an expert is not using raw, original creativity as the primary means of making his move, but using a sets of structerd knowlege of past experiences and studies that come to his mind without consciously searching his memory.

It is also believed that diligent practice makes an expert, not inate ability. Experts are made not born. Someone on this forum recently pointed out that it takes a decade of rigorous practice to master a field. It is possible for someone to play an instrument or chess for thousands of hours without ever making it pass the begginer level. It has been found that playing in chess tournaments does not make you a better player. Only effortful study and challenge will make you better. In other words, you won't get stronger by lifting the same weight all the time. It is interesting that begginers usually excell very quickly at first, and then qickly level out. This is because they do engage in effortful study at first. But after reaching an acceptable level of performance, they become more lax with practicing.
Even prodigies like Mozart started early with rigorous practice. The article also talks about motivation being a key factor and a substitute for talent.

Anyway, all this isn't a big surprise. It has been said before. Pdl practiced for twelve hours a day or whatever. 90% persperation.... etc. But it is somewhat facinating to see some science behind these beliefs, as well as giving a bit of hope that there is always room for improvement. Most importantly, reashuring that you have not reached the maximum of your talent and abilities.




TANúñez -> RE: Becoming an expert guitarist. (Aug. 8 2006 17:26:03)

That was really interesting and a nice change from the usual topics. Regarding Schentific American, you do actually read the articles and not look at just the pics? [:)]

There's another well known magazine that if you ask a person about it, he'll say "I read it for the articles". I'm probably the only guy who gets it just for the pics [;)]




koella -> RE: Becoming an expert guitarist. (Aug. 8 2006 18:36:16)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JasonM

It is interesting that begginers usually excell very quickly at first, and then qickly level out. This is because they do engage in effortful study at first. But after reaching an acceptable level of performance, they become more lax with practicing.


On this point the evironment plays an important role IMO.
I mean, Paco had to practise his *** off to excell between all the other virtuoso's
in his surrounding.
Someone like me will be, after a few years of practise, the undisputed king of flamenco in a little dutch village [8D][:D]

It's a handicap. That's why the foro is a good place to be. It's a virtual reality maybe, but very challenging, motivating and it keeps you with both feet on the ground.




Ron.M -> RE: Becoming an expert guitarist. (Aug. 8 2006 20:17:37)

Love.
Simply and truthfully just Love.
The reason that certain guitarists get to an edge that they blow our minds away is love.
When they run home from school, they dont want to play football or anything..
Just the sounds they hear on the guitar.
That's how they get so damned good.

cheers

Ron




Ramin -> RE: Becoming an expert guitarist. (Aug. 9 2006 14:16:10)

I agree with Ron! I think more important than becoming better at anything you do, is to enjoy it. Life is too short to spend hours on end practicing just to become a better guitar player, IMO. In today's competitive culture, we are programmed to do more, become better and surpass others just because that's the way things ought to be, instead of simply enjoying what we do. In the end, you'll go where your desires take you. But in the meantime, you should enjoy the simplest pleasures life has to offer. That way, you are sure not to miss out on life even if you never become a good guitar player! Cheers!

Ramin




koella -> RE: Becoming an expert guitarist. (Aug. 10 2006 15:11:00)

I guess you're right Ramin.
But someone on this forum said life's to short to mess around. If you do something why not just do it right. ( I think it was ToddK )

Gee Ramin, why did you have to say that ? I just got in the mood to practise my *** off. [:D]




Ramin -> RE: Becoming an expert guitarist. (Aug. 10 2006 19:04:27)

quote:

But someone on this forum said life's to short to mess around.


Sure, I don't disagree with that! I think ultimately life is about balance! But the difficulty is that no one came up with a good definition for balance, e.g., balance between fun and work. In North America we are encouraged to work harder, be more productive and consume more! I only do the last! I consume a lot of good red wine![:D]
But joking aside, you should enjoy whatever it is you're doing IMO. You will definitely learn more from your practice that way! Cheers!

Ramin




koella -> RE: Becoming an expert guitarist. (Aug. 10 2006 19:08:34)

Allright Ramin. I know you meant it well. And I understood what you were saying.
Just kidding a bit.




JasonM -> RE: Becoming an expert guitarist. (Aug. 10 2006 20:01:42)

I also believe we have the wrong philosophy in america, more so in Japan.

But, although I hate the idea of being a slave to my instrument, it can be very frustrating when I don't have the technical or theoretical knowledge to express myself through the guitar they way I want.

It is a constant balance.




koella -> RE: Becoming an expert guitarist. (Aug. 10 2006 20:30:01)

Yes. An example.

Henrik said in his ex. uploads that you should practise thumb untill you start to feel a certain flow in the movement. like 4 strokes start to feel as one fluent movement.

So I start practising. Day after day. Slow, without tension. Done it for weeks. Nothing happened. Untill a week ago. I forgot all the boring hours and wished the whole world could share the euphoria I felt at that moment.

Hope I'm not sounding to new-agy here [:D]




Phil -> RE: Becoming an expert guitarist. (Aug. 10 2006 20:46:43)

quote:

It is possible for someone to play an instrument or chess for thousands of hours without ever making it pass the begginer level.


Are you making fun of me?[&:]

Phil




JasonM -> RE: Becoming an expert guitarist. (Aug. 10 2006 23:51:58)

Koella, Phil,

I don't think your ever going to feel four strokes as one[;)], but it doesn't matter... there is a saying from Ricardo, my favorite, which is "Practice makes permanent." which I think he learned from some ecentric music teacher of his. This is no creed to live by, but its true. You need to practice right, or your just wasting your valuable time. Good advice I think.

New-agy, no way man. Talking about all of this rigid practice stuff. Right now I'm listening to some crazy, virtuoso, hammer-dulcimer jazz cd that I got in the mail.
It is a euphoric experience listening to something other than flamenco one in a while. [:-]




Hugh -> RE: Becoming an expert guitarist. (Aug. 11 2006 6:48:16)

I think jazz and flamenco go really well together. It seems to be much more popular now.
I'd like to try to balance the two, rather than just all flamenco. (assuming I am successful at flamenco that is).
Sorry if I've upset the traditionallists on here, but I'll never get jazz out of my system.




koella -> RE: Becoming an expert guitarist. (Aug. 11 2006 7:31:04)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JasonM
I don't think your ever going to feel four strokes as one[;)]


I think you misread my post.
I DO feel the strokes as one now.

My point was: Excercises may be boring, but when they give a nice result, they can be very enjoying.

P.s. I don't like jazz[8|]




Nemo Nint -> RE: Becoming an expert guitarist. (Aug. 11 2006 8:56:05)

I just want to say ...
I love this board!!

[sm=Smiley Guitar.gif][sm=Smiley Guitar.gif][sm=Smiley Guitar.gif]

I love you all; this discussion and the rest are so very inspiring and exciting.

What I like to do is practice songs that I like, based on sheet music- because I'm not very good at hearing yet. But I've been playing guitar for a year and a half and I can almost play standard notation in classical music on the fly, first time looking at the music. A week ago I couldn't. I very effortfully study and learn the technique and go slow/fast/slow in practice... then I stop playing guitar for a few days.
When I pick it up, it's all sunk in and after 10 minutes of playing, everything is natural. Don't think this is saying much, I"m still just referring to 1-2 notes/beat melodies with a single-note bassline. And I prefer learning classical guitar songs, but being a generally excited person, flamenco is my flavour of choice when I'm not mellow. Recently, I learned "Earth" by Hans Zimmer, from the Gladiator soundtrack- It's a beautiful song.

While aspiring to be better, I still hate considering myself "great" or even "good" in skill because the act of doing that tends to make one (especially myself) puff up and feel special, boasting, etc. I hate that in me. Just being fun and modest is my style.

I figure out what I would like to play and learn it a bit.. not even the whole song but just a single falseta, and then play it with my own particular tempo/rhythm/accents at any given moment. Then if I think it sounds good.. I feel elated :) But I still don't think I'm good. I try to play as if I am a hot shot with real true but un-boasting skill, and keeping my personal esteem low enough to be constantly grounded. I hate thinking I'm an expert but I still want to be one. How very odd that is.

I wonder what issue of Scientific American that was with the article on expert minds?




JasonM -> RE: Becoming an expert guitarist. (Aug. 11 2006 17:11:48)

Hugh,

I totally agree with you 100 percent. I love the jazz influence on flamenco. Also the reason why my favorite guitarist are Gerardo Nunez and Chicuelo, as they really integrate jazz into their work. By the way have you heard the Jazzpana II cd?




d85jrs -> RE: Becoming an expert guitarist. (Sep. 8 2006 3:45:31)

JasonM,

I just wanted to comment on your first post, which I thought was excellent. I've thought about the subject in the past, specifically with respect to learning languages. As far as I understand it, the only way you learn to speak a new language well is not only from studying the rules of grammar, but building on top of those rules with concrete examples from actual use. You hear someone use a sentence, and then you make it your own. The more setences you have to call upon, the better you speak. Through practice and experience, like you said.

When it comes to guitar, you're absolutely right. The idea of "expert" is often over blown. Granted, a genius comes along once in a while, with a natural advantage -- maybe they've got great ears, above average dexterity, etc -- but, without practice, they're going nowhere.

I heard a quote from Yo-Yo Ma once, which went someting like this. People call me a genius, but nobody saw my practicing eight hours a day when I was ten. Or twelve hours a day when I was sixteen.

In my personal learning experience, I've been learning flamenco for about six months, just working on the basic technique. I think flamenco is an especially frustrating form to study, because it could take weeks to learn a basic falseta. Sometimes I get tired of it, but, the good thing is that after those few weeks, when you can play that falseta with your eyes closed, you not only have learned to play (part of) a new piece, but your whole guitar technique has gotten much better. You've become a better guitar player.

And, when you show your friends at a party, you know there's no freakin' way they're learning that little falseta without going down the same hard road you did.

End of ramble!




Nemo Nint -> RE: Becoming an expert guitarist. (Sep. 11 2006 3:40:47)

I haven't been here in a while...

Actually not at all since my last post in this thread on August 11 because I haven't had access to the internet much.

This thread left a long-lasting good impresson on me and I had not yet been able to buy the magazine, but I wanted to read it a lot- so I found it online.

This is the article JasonM referred to- the online version:


The Expert Mind by Philip E. Ross, from Scientific American, August issue




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