Deniz: "aire" and "swing" ? (Full Version)

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JBASHORUN -> Deniz: "aire" and "swing" ? (Jul. 28 2006 14:23:34)

Deniz, I was reading one of your posts about Edgar's performance at the Arts Festival. In it you said that you felt it was important for Flamenco guitar to have what you described as "aire" and "swing". I think you went on to say that it was even possible to play a piece correctly and 100% in compas, but still not have that aire and swing.

If possible, please could you try and clearly describe/define this aire and swing for me? And how does one go about acchieving it? for example, I can play a few Soleas and Tangos. I think I'm playing them pretty much as they appear on the page, and in compas. But how can I recognise if my playing has this aire and swing? And if it doesn't, what can I do to ensure that it does?

This query is aimed at Deniz, because it was his post that mentioned them (if I remember correctly). But if anyone else feels that they have something to say about aire and swing, then they are welcome to share it.


Cheers!


James



Skai -> RE: Deniz: "aire" and "swing" ? (Jul. 28 2006 15:24:36)

For me, it's the natural feel where you articulate and accent certain notes or chords that gives it the feel. Also, the minute variations in timing so that the notes aren't exactly SPOT on but yet still fit in 'perfectly'.

And I think that all this comes naturally, and is not something trained or learnt in a conventional manner. It comes more through subconscious learning and listening to exemplary examples.

Lastly, I think that you can't simply 'tell' whether you've the swing or aire. But rather, listening to yourself as a third party might do the trick. Oh well, just some of my thoughts though I can't play any decent flamenco. [:D]

Cheers,
Cheston



seanm -> RE: Deniz: "aire" and "swing" ? (Jul. 28 2006 15:31:06)

I've always known this as "agogics" (from and old teacher of mine). Basically, playing with the time (i.e. adding swing) but still maintaining a pulse. So you might keep a straight half note pulse (metronomically correct) but play with the rhythmic placement of the eigths or quater notes between each half note pulse. The rule would then be if you take a little from one note .. you have give it back to another so it still adds up to your inner pulse.

agogic

Used of deviations from the strict tempo and rhythm necessary for the subtle performance of a musical phrase.

OR

the slight variations of rhythmic strength, tempo, accent and volume derived from the nature of a particular musical phrase in contrast to the regular pulse set by the time signature, for example, by accentuating a note by holding it for longer, rather than by playing it more forcefully

Sean



Doitsujin -> RE: Deniz: "aire" and "swing" ? (Jul. 28 2006 15:36:14)

Yes I share this.

Its nothing mystical. Duende is a synonym for aire, too. Or just call it "playing with feeling". If you are a beginner, you definetely cant play with feeling. You get it after you became an advanced player. Only an advanced player who is one with the guitar can have that in his playing. Its no special flamenco thing. In jazz or hiphop or other musicdirections, its the same. hmm Didnt we have that theme? I think I wrote something about that in past. If the searchengine would work I could find it.

One example would be. You can write down (for ex. in Guitarpro) an composition perfectly in every detail. But a software would never be able to play it with this "swing". It just play it down like a machine. A human advanced player can give the same fingering and strokes feeling. Thats aire. Nothing more.

Hmm I think you know that JBASHORUN no? Are you testing Deniz? By the way I allways thought Deniz is a woman.[&:] Isnt Deniz a female name? That destroys the picture of Deniz which I had in my head. [:-]



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Doitsujin -> RE: Deniz: "aire" and "swing" ? (Jul. 28 2006 16:21:11)

Than tell me the difference. But please dont try to tell me about mystical **** and ghosts and such a crap. What do you think what duende is shroomy? 2 questions, 2 answeres please.



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Deniz: "aire" and "swing" ? (Jul. 28 2006 16:49:59)

J,
you might listen to these guys, who know a lot more about the subject than the person you addressed it to.

It's somewhat synonymous with the written word vs. a personal conversation. If you and a girl were having coffee and discussing various things, the actual medium of the communication would happen on several plateaus, including the actual words, the tone of the words, the rhythm of the words, the inflection, the eye contact, how often she tossed her hair, whether she crossed her arms, whether you couldn't help yourself to watch the lassie walking by, etc. etc.

If someone were to write down what you said, they would be representing only a fraction of the actual communication.

By way of analogy, the written page only shows part of the music. When someone learns a falseta, they have to supply all the other information. This comes out of their listening experience, their knowledge, their tastes, their personality. When someone adds all of this, then they are playing music and you could describe this as "aire" and in certain styles "swing."

For example, if I gave you a tab for a jazz tune and you played it with no knowledge of jazz, you would play it straight. It would sound stiff, academic--wrong. If you knew enough about jazz, you would add the inflections and rhythmic adjustments to make it "swing." Note that you can't write this stuff down--there's just too much. To write down a jazz tune might take a page, but if you actually took into account everything else, it might run to the size of a book!

I don't actually agree with Doit that aire is added later. As long as you exercise your musical taste, you are adding your own "aire", your own extra information. This might be a heavy metal feeling like Edgar is so fond of, or maybe you know a lot more about Oasis than Alegrias, and that will come out of it. The key is to listen to what you are playign and to use your imagination. Sometimes you will like what you hear, sometimes not. It's good to listen to lots of recordings and go to shows to hear how the pros do it and what it's supposed to sound like.



JBASHORUN -> RE: Deniz: "aire" and "swing" ? (Jul. 28 2006 16:51:26)

quote:

Than tell me the difference. But please dont try to tell me about mystical **** and ghosts and such a crap. What do you thing what duende is shroomy?


Doitsujin,
I asked about "duende" on the forum a while back. most people seemed to define it as an emotion or sentiment felt by the listener during a particularly moving piece of music.

lol, I wasn't testing Deniz as such, but "Aire" and "swing" were his words, so I was curious to see how he would define them.

I was particularly interested to hear how I might see them in myself, or learn how to use them.

But if what I understand from you guys is true... then aire and swing are not concepts that I can learn (literally) by reading the Graf Martinez book, and it would be virtually impossible for someone at my level to play with aire and swing.

Instead, they have to be developed over many years and with experience.

Perhaps its best that I don't worry about aire and swing for the moment?


Jb



Doitsujin -> RE: Deniz: "aire" and "swing" ? (Jul. 28 2006 17:00:57)

Yes you are right JBASHORUN. Thanks for the explenation!

And dont worry about aire. If you play long enough you´ll get it. Me too working on it.

Duende is a feeling by the listener during a special passage? hmm.. But what does aire? The same. It provokes feelings by the listener.

If the listener feels nothing, you have no aire in his opinion.

So... aire = duende and its a very subjective thing. Some people would say a player has it and the others say...no.

At the moment I cant see any differences between aire, feeling, duende, swing and playing with cojones.



JBASHORUN -> RE: Deniz: "aire" and "swing" ? (Jul. 28 2006 17:00:58)

btw, very helpful explanation there Miguel. I think I'm beginning to understand what aire and swing are to some extent. Even if I can't use them yet!

Cheers,

Jb



Doitsujin -> RE: Deniz: "aire" and "swing" ? (Jul. 28 2006 17:23:31)

Oh.. I didnt see Miguels statements. I have some problems to understand all, coz Im overlearned today..And cant concentrate very good at the moment. My english allways gets worser in the evening..

I cant understand what you meant with
quote:

that aire is added later
.
Did I say that? I cant understand the explenation for this Miguel. But I really want. Could you tell it a bit more simple for me Miguel? Just the last part. Im really interested in that.



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Deniz: "aire" and "swing" ? (Jul. 28 2006 18:00:09)

Doit-freund,
perhaps I misunderstood you. I thought you said that you add "aire" later, when you are at an advanced stage of playing. My opinion is that you add aire as much as you can at any level.

It reminds me of what Grisha said, when he said to practice your repertoire very slowly, as if you are in slow motion. HE said to make sure to add every bit of emotion and color to the playing, even if slow motion. To me, that is the same thing as "aire".



Doitsujin -> RE: Deniz: "aire" and "swing" ? (Jul. 28 2006 18:02:00)

Ah thanks Miguel! Now I understand.



Ron.M -> RE: Deniz: "aire" and "swing" ? (Jul. 28 2006 19:58:05)

quote:

Hmm I think you know that JBASHORUN no? Are you testing Deniz? By the way I allways thought Deniz is a woman. Isnt Deniz a female name? That destroys the picture of Deniz which I had in my head.


LOL! Doit...

I just had a sudden image there of Deniz's avatar being that of Freddy Mercury with the moustache and dress and vacuum cleaner from the "I want to break free" video..

[:D][:D]

Ron



JBASHORUN -> [Deleted] (Jul. 28 2006 20:25:16)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Apr. 11 2011 19:46:44



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edgar884 -> RE: Deniz: "aire" and "swing" ? (Jul. 29 2006 4:05:46)

I felt this so called one with my self Duende today when I recorded my slow Bulerias.
I hope I don't get moched for saying that, but I really felt close to my guitar and it was like we were talking to each other.

I don't think my art festival post is near as good as the stuff I do in my own time at the computer but I'm searching. Playing live is a bitch.

Anyway I think that Duende Or Aire and Swing comes from studying enough that you have massive amounts of muscle memmory and mental memmory helping each other out in like a dialouge of sounds feelings, techniques,reactions and already rehearsed ideas, that come to gether to make you one with the universe.


Wow heavy **** there Gabe.[:)]



Doitsujin -> RE: Deniz: "aire" and "swing" ? (Jul. 29 2006 9:54:25)

Yes lionel, I understand. Its difficult with definitions. Im not good with definitions.[&:]
So. Duende is like trance? Like meditating with the help of the music. ^^ I remember Vicente Amigo made a clear definition about duende. I forgot it.. It was posted on flamenco-world.com I will take a look for it again and post it, if I can find it.

Dennis and Denise are often used names here in germany. Dennis is a male name and Denise a female here. Deniz doesnt exist in german. I allways thought Dennis is german.[&:]

Feddy Mercury with a vacuumcleaner??[&:] Thats ....pervert ..... Damn Queen was my first CD and I loved the music! I didnt undertand english this time but they really had so great lyrics ,..like "can you ride my bicycle?" ^^



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Deniz: "aire" and "swing" ? (Jul. 29 2006 15:18:55)

Doit,
my first musical experiences were listening to my parent's tapes...I remember Queen, ZZ Top, and the Righteous Brothers. I never realized Queen were..well, you know. They had good music!



Ricardo -> RE: Deniz: "aire" and "swing" ? (Jul. 30 2006 20:06:17)

The posts by Skai and Seanm I agree with. Swing and aire are part of the rhythmic feel, something done with accentuation and the notes between the beats, the off beats. You can define your swing style by just playing contras. You can swing "harder" by putting the off beat even more on the back beat. But there is a way to play right smack in the center of the beat and still give it a "swing feel". Sort of how you release a note or prepare for the next. It is very complex and somehting not "thought" about much, but I could imagine a good software could be programmed in detail to achieve this sound. But what a lot of work for something that a good player can do naturally.

I have had many students suddenly start doing their own swing unintentionally, and I think it is cool, but a good player can do it or not do it depending. It is a problem when you get stuck in the "swing" groove and can't get out of it.

Aire can be not only rhythmic, it is more or less the mood of the piece and form. The "aire" of Rondena is unmistakeable to guitarists. It is achieved by the tunning and scale. No doubt the key of D# phyrigian used by a lot of modern players, can take on the "aire" of Rondena at times for this reason. Or a bulerias in the key of Taranta has a special "aire" different than that of por medio.

I can hear a guitarist play really good, with "swing","aire",pellizcos, etc, but not necessarily duende. When there is duende, the hairs on your arm go up. No ghosts or magic, it really happens. Weird thing is when it happens to everyone in the room and you can all tell it is happening.

Ricardo



Ron.M -> RE: Deniz: "aire" and "swing" ? (Jul. 30 2006 20:41:51)

I think "duende" is that thing that comes from a lot of, sometimes simple ingredients, that come together, that opens up a world beyond this earth-bound one.
Of course, the best and most experienced Artists are more able to generate that moment.

Take a look at this...



Listen to the bit around 1:20 where Camaron sings a tempúl and a sudden wind gently lifts his hair.

It's like a spiritual wind..a kiss of the angels...and just at the moment when he feels his cante at his core...

Uncanny...dark..mysterious....but just listen to how the crowd react.

Everybody feels the hairs on their arms tingling.

Even Tomatito smiles...'cos he feels it too.

cheers

Ron



Doitsujin -> RE: Deniz: "aire" and "swing" ? (Jul. 31 2006 8:14:10)

I hope when the duende opens athe passage to the nonearth-bound things, no deamons and devils jump through it in our world. [:D]

So duende is "this moment" which gives you the adrenalin push. Right? hmm.. I call it geile Stelle.



cneberg -> RE: Deniz: "aire" and "swing" ? (Jul. 31 2006 9:32:13)

quote:

Take a look at this...



Listen to the bit around 1:20 where Camaron sings a tempúl and a sudden wind gently lifts his hair.

It's like a spiritual wind..a kiss of the angels...and just at the moment when he feels his cante at his core...

Uncanny...dark..mysterious....but just listen to how the crowd react.

Everybody feels the hairs on their arms tingling.

Even Tomatito smiles...'cos he feels it too.


This concert is just amazing. Because of the wind It looks like they are flying.



Guest -> RE: Deniz: "aire" and "swing" ? (Jul. 31 2006 9:49:08)

Little green goblin...



Doitsujin -> RE: Deniz: "aire" and "swing" ? (Jul. 31 2006 11:22:14)

quote:

Little green goblin...



Turquoise please! And its a cat. [8D] haha

And the concert looks like a permanent wave comercial.

Please stop watching too much fantasy movies!! Wake up please! hahaha


quote:

Even Tomatito smiles...'cos he feels it too.
No, I dont think so. I think he smiles coz the audience screamed. And hes happy that the people like the music. Thats just a normal "stage-smile".


For explenation. When you have a singer. Not important how good. And he sings a fandangos. At every end of the coplas, the audience will do the same reaction like at 1.20. Thats normal and has nothing to do with duende. I say that coz i play every week in a spanish mission. And play on theyr festivals. I played for various singers. And no matter how bad it was. At the end of the coplas....the spanish people al-ways scream.. And Camaron just finished a couple of aay´s. Thats the same situation. The people know it and have party with the people on stage. Very normal IMO.
By the way, if we should call the feeling which Tomatito felt "duende". Than the duende came from the audience and not from Camaron. If you silence the audience..there were just a couple of ay´s. Nothing special.

Sorry for having a different opinion here. But you can try to convince me.



Ron.M -> RE: Deniz: "aire" and "swing" ? (Jul. 31 2006 13:16:14)

Doit,
You have the heart and soul of a true Scientist...[;)]

[:D][:D]

Ron



Doitsujin -> RE: Deniz: "aire" and "swing" ? (Jul. 31 2006 13:35:18)

eehh.. yes you are right Ron..sometimes it gets me. [:@] But a scientist with big feelings. Just the transcendental things are bugging me. Its a reflex to challenge it....I cant do anything to stop myself..[:(] haha



Ron.M -> RE: Deniz: "aire" and "swing" ? (Jul. 31 2006 20:40:01)

I've got a kinda half-baked theory about this "duende" thing.

In the 19th and early 20th century in rural Europe, there was a lot of strict adherance to the church and a lot of superstition around generally.

Music that was in praise of God, or at least genteel and refined was acceptable.
Innocent Folk Dances and joyus peasant singing was also accepted as part of the rich rural country landscape, so long as it was "respectable".

Flamenco, along with African rhythms etc was clearly out of the acceptable framework.

It provoked too much emotion, too much baring of the soul to be "decent" and also had a sexual element.
With the aid of wine and music, the practicioners were able to "get high", almost out of emotional control, which was frowned upon by God- fearing Christian society.
It entered an area that could be thought of as "demonistic" chanting or African ritual drumming voodoo etc.
Something that could possibly summon darker forces.
(As Doit indicates.."If you open up that other World...could a Demon, or even worse be able to get through?")

I think that the actual practicioners of Flamenco back then, had a slight worry that they may actually be playing with fire here, although like any addicts, they could not stop wanting to participate and get that "high".

I think therefore that it is possible that when very emotionally extreme moments came in a juerga, folk were aware of a dark presence that they might have unintentionally summoned.

In the stuff I've read, "duende" isn't something that is regarded in a joyful way, but in an awesome, practically fearful, dark way.

Jerry Lee Lewis, who was from a very religious Southern family, once said in a very honest and emotional interview that he really believed he was in for eternal damnation for playing, what he truly believed to be "The Devil's Music"...

But he was just too weak to stop himself..[:D][:D]

As I said, just a half-baked thought at the back of my head!

cheers

Ron



XXX -> RE: Deniz: "aire" and "swing" ? (Jul. 31 2006 22:57:26)

James, sorry man i was offline and i couldnt read this thread fully, so i will maybe answer later. But actually Ricardo said everything worth to say.
What i think important is IMO that you find your own tone. You can have loong philosohpical, metaphysical, never-ending discussions on how music should and shouldnt be, what is aire and whats not, without having found anything worth for you. Mainly because this "feeling" things are always damm subjective and everybody has his own interpretation...

The angle how you attack the strings is very important for the tone. It changes so much, i cant explain it. Its not only about playing rythmic or not, playing heavy accentuated or not. These are the most obvious points but there are more "subtile" ones. For me this "subtileness" has much to do with aire. But again, thats only my subjective view. Its music, not science or any other objective topic we're discussing here.
No idea what duende is, i dont know the difference to aire. Im not sure there is any...

"Deniz" is a turkish male and female name. I am male, i thought it was pretty obvious, no?
Very good post there Doit. Thats a good way on how to "unmistify" some things here.



Exitao -> RE: Deniz: "aire" and "swing" ? (Aug. 1 2006 1:02:15)

Considering that Duendes are mythical beings similar to trolls or faeries, I would have thought that if something had duende, it had life. When something that isn't alive as we, animals or plants are, it has to magical.

It's one thing to have aire and to play with feeling and to have the ability to play with your rythms, but the ability to play in such a way that the music takes on a life of it's own (and this can only be done in a style where you can play with the rythm and improvise to at least a certain extent), then it would have duende, que no?



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