following compas with the foot (Full Version)

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ChrisAudio -> following compas with the foot (Jun. 16 2006 9:11:01)

Hi,

Do you know if is it possible (and better) to battle the beat with the foot when playing a fast buleria, or almost guitarist only concentrate on the backing palmas ?
It seem that there is 2 way for beating the Buleria :
beating the srtong beats: 12**3**6*8*10* (* is not marked by the foot)
and other on the weak beat: *1 2 * 4 5 * 7 8 * 10 11 (wich I try to use).
For me, it is simple to do on simple compas with rasguado, but how much it is difficult with falsettas! I know that some players use evry 2 beats (as Tomatito?) , as others (evrybody?) do on medio compas. Wich one is the best for feel and control the compas ?
Thank's for your anwsers.
Christophe



duende -> RE: following compas with the foot (Jun. 16 2006 9:38:37)

I think it depends on the falseta being played.

If you put your foot on 12 3 6 8 10 you have good control over the compas.
the same goes if your doing the 12 3 7 8 10.
A esyer way is to do 12 2 4 6 8 10 (same as 1 2 3 4 5 6 if you skip the 12count thing)

doing the 1 2 4 5 7 8 10 11. is a bit more "hardcore". It gives a nice "swing or bouncy feeling i think. But it´s harder to know where you are inside the compas. so it takes some practice.

Henrik



Jon Boyes -> RE: following compas with the foot (Jun. 16 2006 10:13:59)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChrisAudio
Hi,
Do you know if is it possible (and better) to battle the beat with the foot when playing a fast buleria,


Interesting question and observations from someone who I thought was a beginner, maybe I misread you. Either that or you are picking this up fast!

You are right about Tomatito, he likes tapping in twos. Paco seems to like tapping al golpe rhythm, or at least he does throughout that old seventies TV video that was posetd recently, as Jim pointed out.

My foot goes in twos or threes depending on the feel of the bulerias, occasionally locking in with the accents depending on the falseta. Whatever works to lock you in, really.



ChrisAudio -> RE: following compas with the foot (Jun. 16 2006 10:40:52)

Yes Duende, you are right about the nice swing given by putting the foot on
1 2 4 5 7 8 10 11. I discoverted that in a video of Todd, where he used a back clapping loop with accents on 1 3 5 7 9 11, and I liked that very much.
But you say it is harder to do, and I've heard it's not; it would be harder to practice as you say, because of the polyrytme it produce with the binary medio compa, but it would be more efficient to control the compas. What do you thing about that point? Because I don't know; Jon: I'm a really beginner in Flamenco (I'm an old classical guitarist and not abble to play more than one compas!), and I try to find the best way to start with this palo and taking much good things as I can!
Christophe



cneberg -> RE: following compas with the foot (Jun. 16 2006 10:49:41)

Your leg can often fool you. I think you first have to get compas in your subconscious, only then you can effectively use your leg. But then again after that you don't really need to use it that much anymore.



duende -> RE: following compas with the foot (Jun. 16 2006 10:58:21)

quote:

accents on 1 3 5 7 9 11, and I liked that very much.
But you say it is harder to do, and I've heard it's not;


NOPE! i said that its harder to do the 1 2 4 5 7 8 10 11

NOT 1 3 5 7 9 11

OK?[:)]



ChrisAudio -> RE: following compas with the foot (Jun. 16 2006 11:46:21)

Sorry Duende, I've wrong written; i wanted to say: one told me that counting
1 2 4 5 7 8 10 11 is harder to practice, but more efficient for controling the compas.
Cneberg, what you suggest for getting the compas in subconscious? Leasten to a lot of traditional players, cante?



cneberg -> RE: following compas with the foot (Jun. 16 2006 12:50:01)

Man... I don't know. I guess listening is a good option. Practice?[:D] I think playing with other musicians is a very good training. By that I don't mean playing only with flamenco guitarists or dancers, playing with any kind of musician is helpful for rhythm and from there on it's probably a lot easier to get into flamenco compas. Because a lot of flamenco guitar fans are entusiasts, playing alone in their rooms and I can understand, it's tough. You think you can play Amigo and when you crawl out of your hole and try to play this things with other musicians, you receive a severe ego blow, you realize it's just not that easy.....

But I'm probably the last one to tell you about this things. Ricardo, Goryachev and other skilled guitarists/forum members would give you a lot more credible advices.



Miguel de Maria -> RE: following compas with the foot (Jun. 16 2006 14:18:30)

Cneberg's comment about your leg tricking you is very true. The numbers can trick you too. About the only thing that can't trick you, is to record yourself playing along with a compas loop. Then it usually becomes pretty apparent whether you are getting a good feel or not.

I really like the 1,2 4,5 7,8 10,11 sound but I can't do it myself. If you tap hard, it's kind of a way of accompanying yourself and that appeals to me since I usually play solo.



cneberg -> RE: following compas with the foot (Jun. 16 2006 14:38:19)

Yeah, "Cool Edit Pro"! Record yourself!

(Hard foot tapping can piss off neighbours below....)



Ricardo -> RE: following compas with the foot (Jun. 16 2006 16:07:52)

It is a personal choice, and there is not a "right" way or "best" way, assuming the end result is EVENESS and groove. My leg gets tired with 1 2, 4 5, 7 8, 10 11 as you say. I feel bulerias as medio compas pretty much all the time. Two ways I feel it:

12, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10 or 12, 3, 6, 9 with the foot. But that is the counts, the actual FEELING to me is like this with the foot:1,2,3/1,2,3, or 2 medio compases where 12, and 6 are DOWN beats. The other way is like a waltz in 6/8: One 2,3, TWO 2,3/ONE 2,3 TWO 2,3 again 2 measures or medio compases. 12 and 6 are down beats again, 3,9 are the secondary beats.

I can play any bulerias stuff against either of these two feels, half compases don't throw me off either way.

Ricardo



Exitao -> RE: following compas with the foot (Jun. 16 2006 18:36:01)

quote:

it would be harder to practice as you say, because of the polyrytme it produce with the binary medio compa


Whoah! Can someone explain this in the "Flamenco and Advanced Rythyms For Dummies" vocabulary?

Chris seems to have and advanced understanding rythyms that I would like to know a little bit about. Either that or the language he's thinking in is simply better for expressing music.



Ricardo -> RE: following compas with the foot (Jun. 16 2006 23:10:44)

quote:

Whoah! Can someone explain this in the "Flamenco and Advanced Rythyms For Dummies" vocabulary?


Imagine a measure of rhythm that has 6 eighth notes, but 3 BEATS counted: 1&2&3&

Now you feel that rhythm but tap this with your foot ( )&2( )3&, ( )&2( )3&, etc.

The () would contain the down beat "1" and the "&" between 2 and 3, every measure. Those notes are missing, but your foot does the rest. Musical/guitar accents may fall on those counts in (), and you tap your foot weird as described, BUT the "medio compas" feeling he talked about is the simple 1,2,3 beat feel. So you have polyrhythm going on.

Ricardo



Exitao -> RE: following compas with the foot (Jun. 17 2006 3:40:08)

3 beats per bar, by the metronome as per normal tempo. But the compas is a tempo within the normal tempo that runs in double time?

So the metronome tempo feels like half a compas, because it's at half the pace of the compas? So when you have more than one rythm, it's called polyrythmic?



ivan -> RE: following compas with the foot (Jun. 18 2006 0:17:38)

wow... I have to give it to you guys about analyzing the hell out of this...to be honest with you, I don't think I ever thought of the way you guys count bulerias while you are playing. In my experience, you never count but just feel where you are. you will always land in the right place if you feel the compas well. It is funny in a way..in Andalucia while you are growing up learning and listening to bulerias for example, you always focus on the strong beats (downbeats) and are expected just to get it. It is amazing how you guys can also intellectualize it. I think it is so hard to think about where you are (1,3, 6,8 10, etc..) and still try to get it in your nervous system. I tried many times to teach american players a bulerias, and they were so caught up w/ counting that it took focus away from them actually learning to feel it. Am I wrong in thinking this? I mean if you guys can learn it this way, then great!! but I just personally think it is more difficult.
Ivan



Exitao -> RE: following compas with the foot (Jun. 18 2006 2:08:23)

Ivan, I don't know where you are from, but it seems you were raised around flamenco?

If this were so, you might have learned compas before you learned to play anything. It was just natural. Maybe you can't imagine not seeing it, but if you could imagine, how would you train yourself?



ivan -> RE: following compas with the foot (Jun. 18 2006 4:24:38)

exitao,
I guess you are right. But if I had to train myself, I would just listen to a lot of bulerias and play along w/ bulerias of all different tempos until you understand the pattern. It is very good to also play w/ a cajon player. malaga is my land but I live in NY now. and yes, we knew the compas before we could play them but I also think you can learn it by just listening to it a lot and practicing w/ cajones, dancers. Bulerias is the most difficult but the patterns don't differ much. Just my humble opinion,
Ivan



Exitao -> RE: following compas with the foot (Jun. 18 2006 4:52:50)

Did you choose Bulerias because of its difficulty?



Ricardo -> RE: following compas with the foot (Jun. 18 2006 6:42:37)

quote:

they were so caught up w/ counting that it took focus away from them actually learning to feel it. Am I wrong in thinking this?


No, that is typical of course. In fact it is that way with all music that has rhythm. When you can do it you don't think, you "feel" it. In fact if you can't feel it, you can't do it. But there are many ways to communicate rhythm since it is simple math. taka taka TAH, or ONEe&ah TWO, uno dos tres cuatro, etc are different ways of "counting" the rhythm.

I hung out with drummers in college so I picked up on the way to "feel" the meter as it is written. They would write out "cadences" for each other to learn and could "feel" it by looking at the paper before they played it. They could play it off the page, at tempo, at first glance. I think flamenco music is often done a dis-service the way it is typically or carelessly written out interms of meter. There is a way to convey the proper feeling but I rarely see it on paper.

The counting buisness "uno dos tres cuatro cinco seis", etc makes no sense to me interms of meter, but it is a way to translate into a lingo, the rhythmic ideas the musician and dancer need to communicate and create with. So flamenco dance accompanists need to learn that language. But unfortunately a lot of people think THAT particular counting system is a way to learn the MUSIC and compas of flamenco, and it is not really. The best thing is to first learn how to play and feel the groove, then later apply the counts to what you have up to tempo already. Counting is a way for the musician and dancer to be "on the same page". But you dont' need to count first to play something, nor do you need to be able to count and play at the same time.

If you happend to be a great reader, meaning you can sight sing any rhythm at tempo like a good marching snare drummer, then I feel you COULD actually learn something about flamenco compas from a WELL written score. But as I said, you don't see a lot of well written scores of flamenco.

Ricardo



Ricardo -> RE: following compas with the foot (Jun. 18 2006 6:55:45)

quote:

So the metronome tempo feels like half a compas, because it's at half the pace of the compas?


NO. The half compas occurs in a "12 beat" type rhythm like bulerias, when you have a phrase of only 6 counts, that might not repeat. It throws everyone for a loop that learns to count in 12 and holds that as a golden rule of compas. The point I was making was that I feel the so called "medio compas" or 6 count phrase as the fundamental measure, and I don't count to 12 or 6, I just feel that measure. So a "half compas" would feel like just an odd measure of rhythm, nothing fancy to count. Most music is made up of even measures so that is why it jumps out as "weird". The medio compas always occurs as counts 6-11, or 12-5, so you can think of counts 12 or 6 as the down beats of the measure.

I like to think of what I tap my foot to as the "beat", (and I always think of the beat as the quater note), so I tap my foot THREE times in a measure of bulerias before the feeling of the phrase repeats. 12, 2,4 is one measure, 6,8,10 is the next measure, and so on, but I dont' count like that unless I am talking to some crazy dancer. I dont' need to feel 2 measures always to be in compas. To me it is just a feeling of 1,2,3 that is pretty simple to me anyway.

Ricardo



Guest -> RE: following compas with the foot (Jun. 18 2006 7:56:31)

So here we are again with this counting thing in bulerias.

For everyone new here, we´ve had some very hot arguments with people leaving the forum etc. a year or two ago. They were mainly discussed under the name of counting two and you can most probably do a search and read them. Some of them are LONG[;)]

I count like Ricardo. I call it to count two or three. The two thing is mainly for standard compás and complicated off beat falsetas, the three counting is mainly for all the falsetas with a more "swingy" three feeling.

The best way of learning compas (IMHO) is to listen to it. I put a solo compas cd on, I count to it, I jump to it, I dance to it, and sometimes I work to it. It takes some of this intelectual approach out of the whole story and makes compás part of your body. Good flamencos have tha compás in their body and not in their head[8D]



Ricardo -> RE: following compas with the foot (Jun. 18 2006 8:08:18)

quote:

The two thing is mainly for standard compás and complicated off beat falsetas, the three counting is mainly for all the falsetas with a more "swingy" three feeling.


Yeah. In fact if I were watching a video of a guitarist, and during bulerias he changes the way taps his foot for certain falseta, then it means he feels it a certain way. If I were asked to write that down on paper, I would indicate a change of meter, to show how the guy is feeling the beat different. The foot is really important for learning IMO. You need to see it, the body language and everything. Meter/compas/groove is not just about how the math adds up.

Interesting to check out Canizares' transcription of Paco's bulerias on Fuente y Caudal. He has several meter changes going on for a good reason.

Ricardo



Exitao -> RE: following compas with the foot (Jun. 18 2006 8:32:11)

quote:

NO. The half compas occurs in a "12 beat" type rhythm like bulerias, when you have a phrase of only 6 counts, that might not repeat. It throws everyone for a loop that learns to count in 12 and holds that as a golden rule of compas. The point I was making was that I feel the so called "medio compas" or 6 count phrase as the fundamental measure, and I don't count to 12 or 6, I just feel that measure. So a "half compas" would feel like just an odd measure of rhythm, nothing fancy to count. Most music is made up of even measures so that is why it jumps out as "weird". The medio compas always occurs as counts 6-11, or 12-5, so you can think of counts 12 or 6 as the down beats of the measure.

I like to think of what I tap my foot to as the "beat", (and I always think of the beat as the quater note), so I tap my foot THREE times in a measure of bulerias before the feeling of the phrase repeats. 12, 2,4 is one measure, 6,8,10 is the next measure, and so on, but I dont' count like that unless I am talking to some crazy dancer. I dont' need to feel 2 measures always to be in compas. To me it is just a feeling of 1,2,3 that is pretty simple to me anyway.

Ricardo


Let me try to say back what I think you mean. If I'm wrong you can smack me.
A full count of the compas is 3 measures, so you tap your foot three times for each measure, coming to the resolution of the compas. You like to think of it(or feel it?) as two measures of 6 beats, which are the compas accents. This is your medio compas?

About the crazy dance part, is that because they think more in contra tiempo?



Exitao -> RE: following compas with the foot (Jun. 18 2006 8:36:23)

quote:

For everyone new here, we´ve had some very hot arguments with people leaving the forum etc. a year or two ago. They were mainly discussed under the name of counting two and you can most probably do a search and read them. Some of them are LONG


I'll look these up. I don't see what's to argue about. If it works for you and it keeps you in compas, why should people argue about it?


I intend to listen to compas tracks. And try to learn some palmas etc, to get the idea.



But here's a question for the pros and experts, do you ever not need to tap your foot or keep count? Can you ever really just feel it and do it without thinking?
It seems impossible now.



duende -> RE: following compas with the foot (Jun. 18 2006 8:52:37)

I would suggest playing along to CD´s with cante. Not the modern stuff but find cd with the most basic buleria changes. and variations.
Like Fernando de la Morenas stuff or Luis El Zambo some Jose merce stuff could also work even though he can be very modern.

Everything you know about following the compas changes when you have to follow a singer. It´s VERY hard to match the recorded guitar. but it´s very usefull to learn because you have to LISTEN! not count. LISTEN and do as they do.

Henrik



cneberg -> RE: following compas with the foot (Jun. 18 2006 9:44:11)

quote:

But here's a question for the pros and experts, do you ever not need to tap your foot or keep count? Can you ever really just feel it and do it without thinking?
It seems impossible now.


Yes I wonder that too.

But when I look at Paco playing live buleria, it just seems that he feels it, he lives in the rhythm



duende -> RE: following compas with the foot (Jun. 18 2006 10:35:25)

i never count when i play buleria. If you count how can you make Music?
I count while composing my faletas etc, studying. Not when i play the music.

the reason for shuting myself up in my room is to THINK and practice so i won´t have to do it when i Play.

Learn everything you can then just forget it and play.[:)]



TGerman -> RE: following compas with the foot (Jun. 18 2006 10:48:21)

Ivan,
Where in NY do you live? I live on Long Island.

Todd



ivan -> RE: following compas with the foot (Jun. 18 2006 14:23:50)

Tgerman,
I live in Yonkers. 20 mins from manhattan driving.
Ivan



ivan -> RE: following compas with the foot (Jun. 18 2006 14:30:50)

Ricardo, Anders and Duende,
Excellent points.. you guys really give great advice and it is exactly what I was trying to say. If you want to make music, don't count..just feel it. Thanks for the input guys. Tgerman, you are in LI? I have to invite you to a juerga in Conn. late this month. Tons of fun and you will be able to play along w/ singers and dancers all night.
Ivan



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