Chocolate Cedar? (Full Version)

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Exitao -> Chocolate Cedar? (Jun. 6 2006 2:50:13)

I was trying to find information about how a Blanca is supposed to be different thant a Negra, but other than the materials, I couldn't find a definitive explination of how they might differ in tone or sound.

While on this search I came across this website:
http://www.classicalandflamencoguitars.com/Chocolate%20Cedar.htm

I have no idea as to whether or not this luthier is any good, but this guitar in "chocolate cedar" is just beautiful to look at.

I've tried googling "chocolate cedar" but I can't find any information about it other than at this guy's website.

I'm guessing that it goes by another name, but he calls it chocolate.

Can you luthiers and dealers possibly tell me more about this wood and if it is likely to be a good tone wood?



aarongreen -> RE: Chocolate Cedar? (Jun. 6 2006 3:18:16)

Its just dark colored cedar, nothing more or less. The color has nothing to do with it's acoutical qualities or the lack thereof



Exitao -> RE: Chocolate Cedar? (Jun. 6 2006 3:24:56)

So cedar is an OK tone wood for a flamenco guitar?



Armando -> RE: Chocolate Cedar? (Jun. 6 2006 10:37:58)

Hi Exitao

I think this is what you are refering to:

http://www.hvgb.net/~tonewood/dcedar.htm

As already mentioned by Aaron, it is only a cosmetic issue whether a luthier builds his cedar top guitars with a dark or blonde colored wood.

Concerning your question if it is a wood that is well suited for flamenco guitars:
Most flamenca negras are built with cedar top. Some famous flamenco players (f.i. Manolo Sanlúcar) preferred cedar top negras over blancas. It's a matter of taste. Cedar top negras usually have a warmer sound with more sustain, but with less attack.



aarongreen -> RE: Chocolate Cedar? (Jun. 6 2006 12:47:20)

In my experience most flamenco guitars, negras or blancas tend to have spruce tops. That isn't to say you can't build a great guitar from cedar, but the raspy and bright attack tends to be easier to obtain with spruce. I have a stash of old cedar that is extremely stiff and light weight and the guitars I have made from it have all had great clarity and quick response. Even though they were "classical" guitars, they could handle flamenco very well. Actually that is just a good guitar in my opinion.

Have fun at the Romanillos course Armando, Jose is a great guy.



Armando -> RE: Chocolate Cedar? (Jun. 6 2006 19:43:36)

quote:

Have fun at the Romanillos course Armando, Jose is a great guy.


Thanks Aaron



Exitao -> RE: Chocolate Cedar? (Jun. 7 2006 6:42:49)

Thanx for the replies guys!

Other than Sanlucar, can youthink of anyone else who used cedar tops?

I just want to give a listen and see if I notice a difference.



Armando -> RE: Chocolate Cedar? (Jun. 8 2006 7:01:23)

Exitao

Yes, Moratio Chico is another example, allthough he doesn't play cedar top negras exclusively. The same is valid for Manolo who doesn't play only on cedar top negras either.



Exitao -> RE: Chocolate Cedar? (Jun. 9 2006 3:15:13)

That would be Manolo Saluzar?

Thanx!



DTFrontera -> RE: Chocolate Cedar? (Jun. 9 2006 22:15:41)

Hi Exitao,

Just wanted to add that Sabicas' Ramirez was a cedar.

Cheers!
Dave



Exitao -> RE: Chocolate Cedar? (Jun. 10 2006 3:02:12)

Hey, thanx! Would you happen to know what albums he used it on?

I have maybe 200 Sabicas MP3s, because it seems you have to pay attention to him for an education in Flamencom but I don't really know about him and his career...



DTFrontera -> RE: Chocolate Cedar? (Jun. 16 2006 23:47:40)

Hi Exitao!

Sorry - I didn't catch your response until just now. Honestly, I'm not sure exactly which albums were done on the cedar Ramirez, but it was quite a few. I'll have to do some research, less I post false info!

Also, there's several videos out there of him playing on it, probably even on youtube now, but I haven't checked.

I'll let you know once I have a chance to look into it.

Cheers!
Dave



aarongreen -> RE: Chocolate Cedar? (Jun. 17 2006 0:56:30)

I think El Rey de Flamenco is one. Dennis Koster told me that some time ago. There is also a compliation cd Masters of Flamenco featuring Sabicas in concert which was recorded in the 60s. Dennis said that was also his cedar topped Rameriz. He also told me that most of the concert was improvised. Not too shabby

aaron



Exitao -> RE: Chocolate Cedar? (Jun. 17 2006 3:28:11)

I think I've begun to distinguish the sound of a negra as opposed to that of a blanca. I mentioned it in another thread, but I sinced refined it a little.

AFAIK, flamenco guitars are designed to be sharper than classical guitars, so that they can be heard above the cante and palmas. IMO, the negra does this by having stronger bass, and a sharper almost brittle set of trebles, probably because of the tonal qualities of the cedar and a shorter sustain.

The blanas have a longer sustain and a sweeter set of trebles and a slightly more classical sound.




So how do you go about finding this wood? Generally you only see a dark red cedar.



Doitsujin -> RE: Chocolate Cedar? (Jun. 17 2006 10:12:25)

This chocolateguitar looks like directly cutted out of a tree which stood in the forrest of the princess with the 7 dwarfs. I think it only would look good if and old grandpa with a long whitegray touseled barb with a pipe in the mouth plays some degenerated melodies on it. It looks horrible. [:@] Sorry.



Armando -> RE: Chocolate Cedar? (Jun. 17 2006 18:04:16)

quote:

AFAIK, flamenco guitars are designed to be sharper than classical guitars, so that they can be heard above the cante and palmas. IMO, the negra does this by having stronger bass, and a sharper almost brittle set of trebles, probably because of the tonal qualities of the cedar and a shorter sustain.

The blanas have a longer sustain and a sweeter set of trebles and a slightly more classical sound.



Hi Exitao

I think that many players would disagree with above statment. Blancas are usually sharper with a faster attack, sharper trebles but less bass and a shorter sustain. Negras are usually louder, with stronger basses an overall darker sound and and longer sustain. However this are all generalisations. It depends how the guitar is built, but the increased mass of the negra does contibute to more sustain and the density of rosewood does contibute to louder projection.



Exitao -> RE: Chocolate Cedar? (Jun. 17 2006 21:32:51)

Hmmm.. I agree with the bass part, I can't speak to the loudness as I only have recoprdings to go from.

Perhaps I was only referring to the sustain in the trebles. Would that make sense? Can a guitar have a longer sustain in either the trebles or bass?


The blancas as sharper, as in more crisp, but they seem sweeter. If we can use such an adjective for sounds. But the shortness of the trebles sounds more brittle, to me.

Does that make sense, or should I listen to a whole lot more music? (I intend to anyway [;)] )



Guest -> RE: Chocolate Cedar? (Jun. 18 2006 7:41:22)

Exitao

This with using words in describing something as subjective as sound is very difficult, but I agree in some point that cypress guitars can have very bright and sweet trebles. The cypress guitars tend to "distort" a bit, making their high trebles "round". You can play a good cypress guitar very hard and it´ll just "distort" some more. Thats why they work so well for dance accompanying.

if you know electrical guitars you´ll understand. Try a telecaster on a none distorted amp, and you´ll get a headache[X(], cranc the (tube) amp a bit and the very high register will be more "mellow"[:)]

Rosewood guitars can have very bright and clean trebles. When you play with capo on 5th or higher (Bulerias for Camaron or female singers) they can be really harsh if you push them hard. They dont have this capacity of "mellowing" they are direct and sharp. But in general, Rosewood guitars have a deeper overall sound because of their powerfull basses. I personally like this deep register of a rosewood guitar, the point is that in order to funcion as a flamenco guitar, you have to make the basses very responsive and with a relatively short sustain.

I dissagree with the rest of the things you wrote about blancas and negras.[8|] And I only want to add that about 80% or more of the Negras built untill now are with spruce tops. Cedar topped negras are rare, but they are becomming more and more used.

Cedar also has this tendency of "mellowing" the trebles and it has a completely different attack than spruce. That´s why cedar topped blancas can be very sweet. The problem with cedar is that if you work it to thin it becomes extremely "muddy" in the sound with basses which are deep but uncontrolable.



Exitao -> RE: Chocolate Cedar? (Jun. 18 2006 8:49:38)

So part of what I'm hearing is the body. And about the rest... I'm all wrong.

OK. I guess I'll just have to listen to some more flamenco. Oh woe is me. He he.

Thanx Anders. BTW: how unreasonable is it to ship a guitar to N. America?



Guest -> RE: Chocolate Cedar? (Jun. 18 2006 15:43:25)

quote:

BTW: how unreasonable is it to ship a guitar to N. America?


Some 260 euros plus insurrance



Exitao -> RE: Chocolate Cedar? (Jun. 18 2006 18:22:42)

Ha! How is such a thing insurable?



dennis -> RE: Chocolate Cedar? (Jul. 11 2006 3:12:23)

Exitao - Paco Pena's Gerundino Fernandez is a cedar top blanca.



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