Developing Compas Feel (Full Version)

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seanm -> Developing Compas Feel (May 19 2006 17:57:34)

Hi everyone,

I know this is a topic drummers are familiar with but I thought I'd see if anyone has thoughts on this with regard to compas.

Basically, I'm wondering if anyone has thoughts, appoaches or experiences on going beyond playing in strict compas and finding the 'groove' or swing within each style (like bulerias or solea por bulerias). I feel that this is what is most lacking in my playing right now. I'm assuming stuff like listen to tons of recordings, doing palmas, learn to play the cajon, play along with CD's, practise with the compas recordings and, of course, 'forget it ... you have to be born with it' are common suggestions. But has anyone seen this aspect of their playing improve over time and if so what do you feel helped that happen. Thanks in advance!

Sean



edgar884 -> RE: Developing Compas Feel (May 19 2006 18:51:18)

You know what helps me is to play something I know is traditional and real with a recording of it and play it over and over till it becomes part of your blood.

Bulerias is the only one I can realy feel, I think it happened when I started allways feeling th 12, 3 ,6, 8, and 10 with out thinking like when ever I hear a Bulerias now my foot kinda taps to that swing. Counting in 12s does not work, I think you have to feel it in a slow 6 so you get the swing feel of it. I don't know if that helps and I'm no expert but that helped me.

I think Ricardo mentioned it's better to feel it in slow 6s that way your getting the swing on that up beat 3. Seems like that three and the 10 are most important.


I'm sure someone else has some better info but yeah there yu go.

And IMO the last Bulerias I posted is the first one that realy has good groove to it, I listen to old ones and I can tell why people were not feeling it, saying your worrying about the notes to much and not the feel(compas).

I heard somwhere to also tap the compas beats on your chest before bed and it helps to imbed the feel in your blood.



Ron.M -> RE: Developing Compas Feel (May 19 2006 19:50:29)

I was listening this week to an ancient recording of Terremoto accompanied by Manuel Morao. (1960's)
The playing sounds quite basic and rough...but the rhythmic sense is just as advanced as some of the things we hear from "advanced" players of today..
Very intricate and you'd easily miss it if you didn't listen closely.

Terremoto is something else though...[:D]

In my own mind I see the Terremoto/Morao collaboration practically identical to the Camaron/Paco one.

cheers

Ron



Ricardo -> RE: Developing Compas Feel (May 19 2006 22:07:26)

First, tempo is king. Once you have the concept that tempo stays the same, you have to get the groove by learning how to control the subdivision. The subdivision may or may not "swing" or whatever, but it has to be precise either way. Once you can deal with the subdivisions with the same perfection as basic tempo, you can get to the heart of what you are talking about, which is the synchopation and dynamics that occur that bring out the "feel" overall. You have to control the synchopation and dynamics despite the steady tempo. It is not easy. There are common mistakes that can be worked out with rudiments, that is what drummers do. Trying to do certain awkward synchopations that force most people to rush or drag depending. I like to set up a loop of a certain rhythmic passage and play it over and over at the proper tempo, to the foot tap also, until it feels natural and easy. Then getting into and out of it in the context of the song, or compas or whatever. Eventually, both seemingly difficult rhythms AND the simpler rhythms feel like the same "difficulty" because the groove rules.

Here is an excercise. Take a simple melody based on quaters, 8ths or 16th notes, and manipultate it against the time so it once begins on the beat, a 16th note off the beat, right in between the beats, a 16th note before the beat. Each time you change it, even though the notes and time values are the same, it should sound and feel like a completely different melody. Always use the metronome, and using your foot with the metronome helps.

Ricardo



seanm -> RE: Developing Compas Feel (May 19 2006 22:41:36)

Thanks Ricardo, that's great info. Sometimes I feel I'm too tied to the beat (classical background) but I can see where controling the synchopations better can allow me the security to push and pull a bit more. I'm thinking that tapping rhythms along side cd could help get a feel for how another player might be moving within the down beats. Definely will try your exercise. Thanks again.

Sean



duende -> RE: Developing Compas Feel (May 20 2006 4:52:20)

be carefull with syncopation though.
People in general tend to push the tempo a bit... just slightly faster for every syncopation.
Specialy in hard parts people stress.
So it´s good to calm down and think about the mani beat. quarternotes.
I try to be a bit l"aid back" if theres a lot of syncopation.



Niklas -> RE: Developing Compas Feel (May 20 2006 7:00:10)

My friend recently bought a cajon and wanted me to explain the flamenco rythms to him.
I wrote the rythm down for him: I took a piece of paper and wrote numbers 12 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 and then underlined the ones that have an accent in alegrias for example.
Then he started playing, and he got the hang of it automatically. I was kind of amazed. Even if he was looking at the paper as i strummed some simple alegrias he still stayed in compas very well. So seems that this method works.
A week after we tried again and this time he worked without any paper. No problems.
He has developed the idea of compas. But what he still does not have is the "feel". Every time he playes it, it sound very mechanical you know what i mean?
I think that problem can only be solved by listening. Listening to other records, and understanding the groove and the feeling of each palo. And this is the part that will take time.

Still, i was impressed.

Niklas



Doitsujin -> RE: Developing Compas Feel (May 20 2006 10:36:04)

The best medicine in my opinion to get the groove and spontaneity in your compas is, to play for dance. You have to react sometimes very fast and allways try to assist their groove with an analog or the same. You have to play very much just the compas..and its boring to play allways the same compas. So you have to make it more interesting while playing. Thats the best and fastest way to get the compas grooving, I think.
And to get a compas which is autentic, at first listen to records and copy their compas. You will learn to play the compas like your most liked player. I did it much with Tomatito, coz hes the bulerias king. I took newer records of him where he acomp. some singers in bars, live.
If you have no class you will have a problem. I heared some players playing well without playing much for dance in past, but its not the same, I think.



Jim9guitars -> RE: Developing Compas Feel (May 20 2006 12:39:21)

So far I only feel the compas in the Farucca form, I think it's because I have learned to play so many of them and I firmly believe they are the easiest flamenco form(for a learning guitarist anyway). Most of the ones I'm talking about are based on the E7, Am, Dm chord progression and feel very simple to me compared to all of the other forms. As you may have deduced, I'm not from Spain,

Jim



Ricardo -> RE: Developing Compas Feel (May 20 2006 13:56:14)

quote:

be carefull with syncopation though.
People in general tend to push the tempo a bit... just slightly faster for every syncopation.
Specialy in hard parts people stress.
So it´s good to calm down and think about the mani beat. quarternotes.
I try to be a bit l"aid back" if theres a lot of syncopation.


Yep that is right. But it depends on which synchopation you do. I find there is also a problem with "dragging" with certain other synchopations. In general the accentuations that come a hair before the beat, people rush, or feel their sense of tempo beat coming sooner than it should, and accentuations that come right after the beat, tends to make them slow down. But it depends. When I play with a percussionist who I feel is pushing the time, I tell him to deliberately play "laid back" as you say, or "relax it". It almost always works just to say that. Same for palmeros who try to follow a synchopated falseta and start speeding up. If they are not just speeding up but all over the map, I say "don't listen to me, just concentrate on being EVEN". That usually works too. I do it myself when accompanying some crazy synchoptions for an improvising dancer. It is different when you have learned the same synchopations yourself, then you can listen and contribute to the tightness.

quote:

The best medicine in my opinion to get the groove and spontaneity in your compas is, to play for dance.


Yes excellent advice. This is the equivalant for flamenco players as the rudiments for drummers I talked about before. You get the flamenco specific "rudiments". Make sure that you work with GOOD dancers that have tempo and are not just making you learn and support their coreography. You should not have to be adjusting your tempo CONSTANTLY, which is what I find with some dancers that are not so advanced. But deliberately moving the tempo or changing gears, does happen alot in dance accomp.

But don't fall into the trap that you don't need the metronome because you work with dancers and the moving tempo is important. People that understand how to hold the tempo understand subdivision too (whether intuitively or not) and it is the subdivision that holds things together when you speed up for example. The dancer often uses contras to speed up the tempo and the guitarist must not loose the base and speed up too. It is a big challenge at first because the dancers controls the time with the subdivision, not with the beat, and the guitarist has to keep it tight. There are different ways to build up, but I find with the contras specifically, the folks who have steady tempo generally (be it palmas guitar, dance, percussion), do a better job at keeping the build ups tight.

Ricardo



seanm -> RE: Developing Compas Feel (May 22 2006 0:34:04)

Thanks everyone. This is exactly the feedback I had hoped for. I will look at all of this over the next while see where it takes me. I think I'm going to focus on simple compas variations and the 'groove' for a month or so an see what the result is.

Sean



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