New Tab - El Viejin bulerias (Full Version)

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Conrad -> New Tab - El Viejin bulerias (May 18 2006 0:16:18)

Find it at www.moderntoque.com Enjoy!

-Con



Paleto -> RE: New Tab - El Viejin bulerias (May 18 2006 2:54:30)

Nice!!!!

I've been waiting for someone to tackle this one. Actually today, May 17, I took my son for drive to get him to sleep a nap and heard it and was thinking I wished someone had done a transcription of it.

Any chance you'll do it in its entirety?

Great work Conrad, I for one *really* appreciate the transcriptions.

Great job.

Thanks a ton!

Anthony



Conrad -> RE: New Tab - El Viejin bulerias (May 18 2006 5:32:53)

Thanks,

Actually Ben and I collaborated on this one, but he initiated it. Hopefully he'll get around to doing the whole thing. As a matter of fact, I meant to tell him that it really needs to be the whole piece, because how many falsetas do you see with drop B tuning? haha

-Con



Doitsujin -> RE: New Tab - El Viejin bulerias (May 18 2006 9:44:01)

Yes! I love his bulerias! Please make more tabs of this bulerias!



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Kate -> RE: New Tab - El Viejin bulerias (May 18 2006 18:54:34)

Hi Con,

I hate to be a damp squid but do you have the artists/publishers permission to make these available ?

I see you have some of Parilla's compositions up there and I would like to think he is being paid for any downloads particularly considering his current circumstances.

Kate



Conrad -> RE: New Tab - El Viejin bulerias (May 18 2006 19:21:25)

Hi, Kate!

Actually, we offer these falsetas free. I imagine because of flamenco's oral tradition of sharing that the artists would not be too upset about that, but if you reckon it's something still sacred to learn their flourishes, then maybe I should reevaluate this.

As far as Parrilla, well I assume you're thinking of the older Parrilla who is ill and financially unstable. These transcriptions are those of young Manuel Parrilla, and I believe they share no relation. ??

thanks for the input,

Con



Escribano -> RE: New Tab - El Viejin bulerias (May 18 2006 20:07:14)

Free or not, you might want to check this out:

Song sites face legal crackdown
The music industry is to extend its copyright war by taking legal action against websites offering unlicensed song scores and lyrics.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/4508158.stm



Conrad -> RE: New Tab - El Viejin bulerias (May 18 2006 20:44:34)

Thanks, I've read that Simon. I say "bring it on"! haha They likely won't come after me as I'm small potatoes, and so few people actually use the tabs that I make.

More importantly, what do you think? Do you not endorse my operations?

-Connie



Escribano -> RE: New Tab - El Viejin bulerias (May 18 2006 20:51:14)

quote:

More importantly, what do you think? Do you not endorse my operations?


Tough one. I make little documentaries nowadays and whomever I film, whatever music I use, wherever I film (including recognisable public places), I must have releases (permission) or my film can never be screened, anywhere.

I can see both sides of this case, a few falsetas that would otherwise not reach a wider audience or rewarding an artist who would probably want too much to make it viable and not give permission anyway.



Phil -> RE: New Tab - El Viejin bulerias (May 18 2006 20:53:06)

quote:

These transcriptions are those of young Manuel Parrilla, and I believe they share no relation.


The young Manuel Parrilla is Parilla de Jerez's nephew. Just to keep things confusing: Parilla de Jerez is also named Manuel and is often referred to as Manuel Parrilla.

Almost everybody in Flamenco plays other people's falsetas. On the Zambo CD Moraito plays a Parrilla de Jerez Siguiriya falseta note for note and I've heard him play other bits and pieces of Parrilla on other recordings. I've always just considered this to be his way of showing his admiration of Parrilla. And then the question becomes - did Parrilla 'borrow' from someone else? I don't think there are too many Flamenco guitarists going after people for playing bits and pieces of their stuff.

There are people on the internet selling falsetas that are freely available, and I have a problem with that. However, posting free tabs that you transcribed doesn't appear to me to violate anything, moral or legal. In no way does it hurt the artist financially. On the contrary, it may serve to generate interest in that artist and increase sales of his recordings. Transcribing is tedious and time consuming work and I'd bet a good lawyer could put up a good defense to justify selling transcription.

Does anybody here think that when you take lessons in Spain that you are only taught original material from the teacher? What's the difference between teaching someone a Viejin falseta directly and giving him a written transcription of it that you did? I think the only people that worry about this stuff are people on these forums. If professional Flamenco guitarists were concerned about it they'd be lined up outside El Carbonero's and every other Flamenco guitar teacher in Spain's doors. After all, they ALL learned other people's falsetas first.

Phil



Kate -> RE: New Tab - El Viejin bulerias (May 18 2006 21:10:25)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Conrad
As far as Parrilla, well I assume you're thinking of the older Parrilla who is ill and financially unstable.


I was. Am rather glad they are not his. Sacred isn't quite the right word its sort of more out of respect that I think this. I dont suppose he holds the copyright or publishing of his compositions anyway, coming as you say from a generation that just played with little thought for rights or royalties. And that is the bottom line nowadays, if the music is under copyright it wont be the flamenco artists but the music publishing industry that owns it.

You could always approach the companies concerned and ask for a license, publishers like that, that's what they are there for, and sometimes the artists get lucky and the publishers give them a wee bit [&:]

Kate



ivan -> RE: New Tab - El Viejin bulerias (May 18 2006 21:12:31)

I agree. they are free and people need to relax and stop being so uptight.



Kate -> RE: New Tab - El Viejin bulerias (May 18 2006 21:24:12)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil
On the contrary, it may serve to generate interest in that artist and increase sales of his recordings.


Absolutely. I think it would be a great idea for the tabs to be available alongside the music downloads. I dont think the publishing companies have thought of that one yet.

I'm not thinking of traditional falsetas as much as entire original compositions, actual released recordings.


Kate



Doitsujin -> RE: New Tab - El Viejin bulerias (May 18 2006 21:38:01)

The have shut down 99% of mysongbook..what a mess. They are crazy. I think there are some bored officenerds who looked for some work. Its like the police wich is send out to find wrongparkers when the city needs money!!
Whats up with Alain Faucher? It will be his ruin. They are crazy! Than its illegal too to play a falseta of Viejin on video..thats crazy. I cant belive that.



bahen -> RE: New Tab - El Viejin bulerias (May 18 2006 23:45:05)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Conrad

I imagine because of flamenco's oral tradition of sharing that the artists would not be too upset



Exactly.

As for a falseta being an original composition or a 'traditional' one... well, that's an odd distinction to make since even the traditional ones were, at one time, original compositions. Someone on this forum had a really nice signature, I forgot who it was, but it went something like this: Don't worry about people copying your ideas, if they are good enough, you will have to to ram them down people's throats anyhow.

Power to you and Benjamin, Conrad. Well done. I think it's nonsense that flamenco guitarists, being part of an oral and free-trading tradition, would adopt the capitalistic addiction with owning and price-tagging everything.

- bahen



seanm -> RE: New Tab - El Viejin bulerias (May 19 2006 0:03:19)

But what happens when someone writes a 'falseta' and then someone else 'incorporates that aurally' into their own playing and into a smash hit and makes tons of cash? Also, if you are giving away someones else's composition on their behalf, then you are undercutting a potential market they might want to explore. Just questions to wonder about ... I'm not taking a stance. It just makes me think there's gotta be a line somewhere.

Sean



bahen -> RE: New Tab - El Viejin bulerias (May 19 2006 0:45:59)

quote:

But what happens when someone writes a 'falseta' and then someone else 'incorporates that aurally' into their own playing and into a smash hit and makes tons of cash?


This is confounding two separate issues. To learn how to play a piece is an entirely different matter than to use it to generate cash. To argue that Conrad, Ben, and other transcribers should not transcribe is tantamount to arguing that one should not look up the lyrics to a song and sing along with it. Because Conrad is not making a profit from the falsetas, the question you raised is misplaced.

- bahen



seanm -> RE: New Tab - El Viejin bulerias (May 19 2006 2:00:05)

But if he publishes (Internet or otherwise) his transcription for all to use and then the artist publishes an official version for sale and profit, isn't that under cutting that artist?

The example regarding lyrics is somewhat different because anyone can write down lyrics from a song (within reason) however, very few players can produce or take the time to produce accurate transcriptions. So on the one hand lyrics are open season or common knowledge because anyone can learn them however, transcriptions require a specialized skill and that is why and artist can profit from their sale. By beating them to them punch and publishing them without thier consent you are in effect cutting off a revenue stream from them.

I'm only considering this side of it by placing myself in an artists position. I never really thought about it before. Imaging how I'd feel if I had a successful album that someone else made the transcriptions of before I had the chance and I had hoped to publish them. I'd loose money.

Sean



Conrad -> RE: New Tab - El Viejin bulerias (May 19 2006 2:34:13)

Hi,

I am learning a lot from people's ideas on this matter... I should say one thing which is that originally I had hoped to contact all these artists and ask for permission, maybe even in the hopes of selling my work (and paying royalties) but I decided that it is nearly an impossible task! Instead I offer them gratuitously because I want to raise awareness of these artists as Phil acknowledged. I strongly doubt that any of this material will ever be published. Flamenco is unique that way. What percentage of flamenco falsetas or compositions are officially published compared to other music?

That said, to me the only trouble here is that as Sean rightly and eloquently suggested, these artists may wish to offer official scores of their own work. In the meantime, I do only tabs which to my good knowledge, have not been published and I don't think there is enough material on my site yet to put a threat in to that opportunity that they have. The variety I offer also dampens the effect.

I do want to account for this possiblity, but I mean, it's just so unlikely that these things will be put to paper by anyone else, and they should be!! So now you see the quandary!! HA!

-Con

p.s. I have had proposed commisions to transcribe things by people in Spain and elsewhere, but I've turned them down due to these moral and practical complications and all the aforementioned issues in this thread. Furthermore, my work could easily be stolen (and sold or spread free) if I did transcribe a whole album, for example. It's what has happened so rampantly with Alain Faucher's work, I know.



Kate -> RE: New Tab - El Viejin bulerias (May 19 2006 7:52:09)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Conrad
I had hoped to contact all these artists and ask for permission, maybe even in the hopes of selling my work (and paying royalties)


Its not the artists that give permission but the publishers. They own this intellectual property. Nothing to do with flamenco or attitude of the musicians. Contacting the publishers is not an impossible task, just a phonecall or a letter. Though as you say there is not much demand for them so its not exactly a commercial venture. That's a shame.

If they are just traditional falsetas that everyone plays then there should be no problem, they would be considered in the public domain.

Just trying to help here not knock what you are doing at all. You should offer to transcribe for the artists, colloborate on teaching books, DVDs etc. Problem is, apart from Paco, most flamenco artists could not afford to pay you, you'd probably have to work on a royalty basis, though that would not work if they were given away free.

I'd love to do a package for Emilio Maya's album where you get the tabs when you download the whole album. One of his students once offered to do this as a favour to the maestro but ended up asking for us to pay for his flight, accomodation and meals, for a broadband intenet access and computer and he would want free daily lessons while he was here. We turned down his kind offer [;)]

Kate



Kate -> RE: New Tab - El Viejin bulerias (May 19 2006 13:43:08)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bahen
To argue that Conrad, Ben, and other transcribers should not transcribe is tantamount to arguing that one should not look up the lyrics to a song and sing along with it. Because Conrad is not making a profit from the falsetas, the question you raised is misplaced.


No-one is saying they should not do this, just they should beware legal ramifications if the work is under copyright.

Your analogy of singing along to lyrics is not quite the same. I'd liken transcribing to the work of a translator. Say if I were to translate works by Lorca and make it available without permission on the net for free I would be infringing copyright and no doubt would be taken out and shot bythe Lorca foundation [&:] If I have their permission I believe I get 50% of the publishing royalties and they get the rest and we all live happily ever after. Great work if you can get it., I'd like to translate the entire Beatles catalogue and then get a Spanish band to cover them.

Kate



Kate -> RE: New Tab - El Viejin bulerias (May 19 2006 14:19:53)

quote:

What percentage of flamenco falsetas or compositions are officially published compared to other music?


Any music on a released recording more than likely will have a publisher who owns the publishing rights, unless it is considered 'popular' ie traditional and already in the public domain. However there is a way round this as well. If you see Estrella Morente's second album Calle de Aire it is made up entirely of popular songs and lullabyes which have been 'adapted' by Enrique Morente and so these arrangements come under copyright.

quote:

it's just so unlikely that these things will be put to paper by anyone else,


In Spain when an artist registers his work with the SGAE they have to include the score, whether or not they actually release the score in a tab format is another matter, but the scores exist.

I seem to be going on a bit and am sorry Conrad, I am not getting at you, just trying to state the case of the publishers representing the artists work.

By the way I see you studied under Miguel La Bastide. If you see him and his wife send regards from Kate and the gang from Granada.

Kate



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Kate -> RE: New Tab - El Viejin bulerias (May 19 2006 16:05:34)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bahen
I think it's nonsense that flamenco guitarists, being part of an oral and free-trading tradition, would adopt the capitalistic addiction with owning and price-tagging everything.



Music is a business like any other. There was a time when flamenco was considered amateur, a hobby people did in their spare time while they ran bars, hairdressers, worked in the post office etc to earn a living ( just as footballers used to do back in the old days when my father in law played for Notts). Many flamencos still have 'day' jobs as it is very difficult to make a living from flamenco. Some guitarists manage better especially if they compose as opposed to accompany and if they hava good business sense. Paco springs to mind, he even owns his own Carribean island, he was not allowed to jam with others when he was younger, not even at the Peñas. His father was a sharp businessman and if Paco played you paid.

It is every flamenco guitarist's dream to be as rich as Paco (and as good [;)])


Kate



Kate -> RE: New Tab - El Viejin bulerias (May 19 2006 16:36:52)

quote:

ORIGINAL: nealf
the transcriptions are free, no one is making money off them


Sorry mate that's beside the point, permission is needed to print and make the transcripts available full stop. Its called print rights nothing theoretical about it all. Nowadays photocopy shops are not supposed to allow photo copies of copyrighted books, athough of course they do. Most music teachers I know use photocopies.

Anyway I have a hard enough time trying to get answers from SGAE about recordings, publishing, print, synchronizaton and mechanical rights and explaining it to artists as it is. So I'll stop posting now, it looks like I am annoying everyone anyway which was not my intention.

I am sure you are right and the big companies are far more concerned with chasing pirates than our friend Conrad.

Kate
By the way Nealf thanks for putting up a review on CDbaby for Emilio. Much appreciated.



Jim Opfer -> RE: New Tab - El Viejin bulerias (May 19 2006 18:31:18)

quote:

few people actually use the tabs that I make.


I think that's the main point. Different if you were posting photocopies of some other guys transcription. If you transcribe the material I understand that it is not copyright except your own.



bahen -> RE: New Tab - El Viejin bulerias (May 19 2006 21:34:32)

quote:

Music is a business like any other.


I beg to differ.

Like I said, this is just a poor generalisation of the hyper-capitialistic obsession with price-tagging, owning, and as you put it, making everything into a business. It's ridiculous. I don't argue that there is no line, and that all is free. For example, I do purchase my own flamenco CDs (but I do not purchase my own pop CDs from artists who are too rich for their own good anyway). But to argue that we should not even TRANSCRIBE flamenco and partake in the tradition's culture of openness and sharing? Christ.

Music, and specifically flamenco, is not a business. It's sad to hear you say that. It's a culture, though of course, you should not have to hear that from someone living outside of Andalucia (unlike yourself).

- bahen



seanm -> RE: New Tab - El Viejin bulerias (May 19 2006 22:14:55)

Artists make music.

Artists earn a living.

Music is a business.

You cannot walk into a bread shop and hand out the baker's bread on his behalf in the spirit of sharing. It's not your's to share.

Sean



Kate -> RE: New Tab - El Viejin bulerias (May 19 2006 22:20:52)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bahen
But to argue that we should not even TRANSCRIBE flamenco and partake in the tradition's culture of openness and sharing?


I have NEVER said that people should not transcribe flamenco. I was pointing out the implications of copyright issues.

If a flamenco musician has got to the point of composing, recording and finding a publisher for their music it is a long hard road, one that should be acknowledged and respected.

And of course its a business, ask any professional artist. You make it sound as if the artist is a greedy capitalist , exploiting the public merely by expecting payment for his work, for hours of practice and dedication to their art. I think your way of thinking is sad and twisted. I fight on the artist's side.


Kate



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