Building a Flamenco Guitar - 5 (Full Version)

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Ramón -> Building a Flamenco Guitar - 5 (May 13 2006 2:43:36)

Learned something new today...You know those blueprints of the original I made? Well, I found out they're CLOSE - but not exact! Good to work on top of, directions, a look back for a mental pic, but take ALL MEASUREMENTS from the original.

I laid my clear plastic template, complete with little punch marks for braces, fans, etc., and they didn't line up anymore?? Huh???? Then I laid the template on the original, and it was spot-on.

Today I set all my lines (faintly) with a pencil, onto the the back of the top (soundboard), making a small and shallow centerpunch hole on-center. Braces and fans are cut (almost) to size and thickness, as well as the top (tentalones?) - the little stiffeners that lie between the fans at the back). Nothing shaped, but the pics shows the Reyes pattern.

Also cut the soundhole support. The soundhole cutter is cool. You drill a 1/4" hole in the center of your soundhole, then use a jig with a razor that has a 1/4" shaft it rotates around. The blade is REALLY sharp, but cuts soooo clean and nice. I was like; "I DID THAT!". Next I routed the top to accept the rosette. I searched and searched for a Reyes-style rosette, but gave up and used the Russian ros' I got , which is quite striking, with a Moorish style pattern.

Practiced routing on a throw-away board. Glad I did. Euro Spruce, Master Grade, is $150, plus time and effort the glue and sand. The practice helped, and (my mantra - patience), also went s-l-o-w-l-y to cut the circle; both in depth of cut and working outward, hair-cut by hair-cut, to each of the edges, and the results were an almost perfect fit, the only slight chip I got was where the fingerboard covers, as Bob Hein told me to start where "it don't matter so much". Good advice. Got the cuts more and more perfect with each pass.

The rosette sits in snug, no distortion, not pinched, just right.

It's slow going, but it just takes the time it takes. Our humidity is around 90% right now, with temps only about 65 (18c), so tomorrow I'll cut the soundhole and read (and play Bob's guitars!), but I'm almost to the point where I have to glue the soundboard, and then start locking up the box to progress, so I need a sunny day!

The pic is the neck and fretboard (fretb' isn't glued, just sitting), and my bracing pattern. The extra braces are for the back.

Thanks for everyone's feedback, input, support, etc.!



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Ramón -> RE: Building a Flamenco Guitar - 5.1 (May 15 2006 15:49:51)

ARGHHHH!!! Man...little mistakes.

The fan bracing for the Reyes is 7 fans, and most are all different widths, heights, and many have high-to-low tapers, some slanting forward and one back!!!

I cut one set, and realized I was too 'low' to get the proper high-to-low slope......One set down... Anyone want some German Spruce popsickle sticks?

Cut another set yesterday, and got them almost to EXACT measurements and tapers (within hundreds of an inch). I was sooo pleased. Then planed the edges to get the little triangular shape.

Bob's girlfriend stopped by, so they took off, and The Fearless Flyer worked alone. Ooops. As I finished THE LAST BRACE, I looked at a set Bob had set aside (why I didn't look earlier is a mystery) for a Barbero flamenco, and realized the angle is NOT cut from center-top to the bottom edge, but leaves a slight 'flat' area from the bottom up the side a bit, which is then rounded, so there is a bit more 'meat' lower than I thought.

Bob showed me on the plan how it looks, but some lines 'cross' there, and the exact shape is somewhat hidden - until someone points it out....

So another 4 hours and I ended up with "mixing sticks", as Bob commented...

Frustrating.....



Guest -> RE: Building a Flamenco Guitar - 5 (May 15 2006 16:02:20)

Keep it up Ramón!!!!

But why don´t you have a dehumidifer in the taller? In Cádiz, depending on the wind from the sea or from the land, the humidity can swing from 90% to 30% overnight. So we run the machine every day in the taller and can keep the humidity constant. You would not believe how much water the machine collects.

Have a look at http://guitarra.artelinkado.com/foros/forumdisplay.php?f=17

Suerte

Sean



Francisco -> RE: Building a Flamenco Guitar - 5 (May 15 2006 16:11:32)

Looking good. What's the scheduled completion date?



Ramón -> RE: Building a Flamenco Guitar - 5 (May 15 2006 16:23:11)

Arghhh...Not stopping. Just like 8 hours of work to make 'mixing sticks' - but VERY straight-grained mixing sticks!

We generally don't have the humidity factor to deal with so much, as we run 40% each most days, but in late Spring, early summer, we get 'June Gloom' is So Cal, which is a low fog-ish ceiling, no sun, and humidity goes way up. Cool, but humid. So we wait.

It's over, now. Burns off about 11am, and drops to the 40's % area. So I WAS going to glue, but it's back to the saws, sanders, and planers... Luckily, it's small, and have plently of wood, but do to it 3 TIMES is frustrating....

Finish date? hahahahaha... At this rate, 2011 looks like a date to shoot for....[:@]

Thanks for the encouragement...Hey Samwise. You get TABS for that little vid' piece yet? If you do, I'd like them too!

Soo...Practiced this morning, going surfing now, and work on my guitar later (no work today).

(the pic is a kind-of-how-it-will-look idea)



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Francisco -> RE: Building a Flamenco Guitar - 5 (May 15 2006 17:52:51)

quote:

Finish date? hahahahaha... At this rate, 2011 looks like a date to shoot for....

But it seems to coming along rather quickly. That rosette looks really cool.

quote:

You get TABS for that little vid' piece yet? If you do, I'd like them too!

Negative Captain, and I think I have searched all the way to the end of the internet for it, or so it seems. Did you see this version of it that Florian uploaded?



Ramón -> RE: Building a Flamenco Guitar - 5 (May 15 2006 18:56:14)

It's doing okay, but realistically, it's like 1/10th the way there....There is soooo much still to do, but

That pic? I just kind of threw the parts together to get an idea of what my rosette would look like against the ebony, spruce, etc., when I was trying to decide whether to use that one or make one. Kind of stayed with a more traditional Spanish feel, and I'm now glad I did. I think it will look pretty nice when it's done (now lets just hope it PLAYS like a real guitar! Scared I'll end up with a 'plinker'...)

Would love to have found a Reyes style rosette, but no luck.

Finish date? Hmmmm...Maybe like August? If I could just go do that everyday, but....

Grabbed that TAB (thanks for the link)... Going to sit with it tonight and checkit out.

R



TANúñez -> RE: Building a Flamenco Guitar - 5 (May 18 2006 16:34:02)

Hey Ramón I'm finishing up a guitar in which I took the measurements off of an 83' Reyes. Same bracing pattern but this one did not have those little strips on the lower end. Your's is coming along nicely.



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Ramón -> RE: Building a Flamenco Guitar - 5 (May 18 2006 23:03:18)

Tom,

Thanks. Your's looks very clean and nice! Tom Blackshear's thoughts were that those little spacers were to keep the 'wrinkling' from the back area.... I'm just following plans, as I have NO experience!

I was trying to see your solera, as Tom's plans are quite left to one's imagination. A 'slight' drop, from behind the bridge to the back...I'm just guessing on mine, and using my surfboard-shaping experience to keep the roll-off smooth.

Busy at my reg' job, so no work on my baby since Monday. Looks like Sat and Sunday. Missing it!



Guest -> RE: Building a Flamenco Guitar - 5 (May 19 2006 10:44:47)

Looks good Tom

The "cut off´s" of the braces are very short. Does the plan indicate that. I´ve seen a couple of photos of Reyes soundboards, and the "cut offs" were a lot longer. How thick and wide are the braces?

Your design will most probably produce quite a lot of sustain and harmonics. (That´s not negative or positive) Just some thoughts.

So I can see that it´s modern now to build Reyes.



TANúñez -> RE: Building a Flamenco Guitar - 5 (May 19 2006 13:27:19)

quote:

The "cut off´s" of the braces are very short. Does the plan indicate that. I´ve seen a couple of photos of Reyes soundboards, and the "cut offs" were a lot longer. How thick and wide are the braces?


Hi Anders,

The cutoff's were short on this plan. I see that they are also short on the plans for the 2003 Blackshear plan. All the braces on the 83 were 7mm wide except for the first brace on the treble side which was 6mm and the first strut on the bass side which was also 6mm. They were also about 3mm high exept for the first treble side strut which was approx. 4 to 4.5mm high at the back and tapering to 3mm to the front. Since these measurements are slight, I don't know if this was intentional or not.



Ramón -> RE: Building a Flamenco Guitar - 5 (May 19 2006 14:22:22)

In talking with Tom B, and looking over the plans with Bob Hein, here, it looks like Reyes lets the bases run with a bit less bracing, and increases the stiffness on the treble side to gain a bit more from the trebles. Whether I'll acheive this on MY first guitar will be interesting to see, but I would love a review from you, Tom, on how your's turns out.

Are you building full-time, or is this like mine; "Here and there", whenever possible?

I have been thinking and thinking about my solera shape (the arc and curves of the top). I think I'm going to rework it a bit before I glue.

PS... Anders and Tom. Do you guys use hide-glue for the top? Entire construction? Not at all? Just curious.... I'm going to do the entire top in hide glue, the rest in yellow wood workers.

R



TANúñez -> RE: Building a Flamenco Guitar - 5 (May 19 2006 15:07:53)

quote:

Are you building full-time, or is this like mine; "Here and there", whenever possible?

I have been thinking and thinking about my solera shape (the arc and curves of the top). I think I'm going to rework it a bit before I glue.

PS... Anders and Tom. Do you guys use hide-glue for the top? Entire construction? Not at all? Just curious.... I'm going to do the entire top in hide glue, the rest in yellow wood workers.


Hi Ramón,

I "try" to build full-time but having kids and all the family commitments that come with the package it's hard. I'm just starting up again after a 3 month layoff due to an accident I had with a chisel. Be very careful and take your time. When you rush, accidents happen [:@]

The solera is rather simple but like Anders told me once, I think TOO Much and work too little [;)] I'm a perfectionist and I spend way too much time thinking things out instead of just "doing it".

My solera is just like the one expained by Roy Courtnal in his book "Making Master Guitars. The only difference is mine is not "universal" with the slidding blocks. Mine is a fixed mold.

Regarding glue, I am now using fish glue which I love. Faster tack time and less creeping. I use it on everything except the fingerboard and rosette.

Here's a pic of my solera/mold.



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Ramón -> RE: Building a Flamenco Guitar - 5 (May 19 2006 15:56:20)

Hola Tom,

Looks very nice! Have you built the 'Reyes' before??? If so, thoughts, tricks, ideas?

What I am having concerns about on the solera is the amount of curve in the top of the guitar, so I'm going back to the drawing board a bit on that. I just want to get it where I am happy and it looks right, and get on with this!

Fish glue? That's new one! Hope the insides don't smell like my hands after a day of fishing with anchovies as bait!!! UGH! [;)]

Thanks for feedback. I'm just trying to absord all I can.

R



TANúñez -> RE: Building a Flamenco Guitar - 5 (May 19 2006 16:27:28)

quote:

Looks very nice! Have you built the 'Reyes' before??? If so, thoughts, tricks, ideas?

What I am having concerns about on the solera is the amount of curve in the top of the guitar, so I'm going back to the drawing board a bit on that. I just want to get it where I am happy and it looks right, and get on with this!

Fish glue? That's new one! Hope the insides don't smell like my hands after a day of fishing with anchovies as bait!!! UGH!


The fish glue has no odor. At least not any I can detect.

This is my 2nd attempt at the Reyes. I totally screwed up the neck angle on the first one so this is my second go around. I've been building Barbero inspired guitars which I really love. I just wanted to try something different this time.

The deepest part of your solera should be roughly 2 to 3mm with the highest point being around the bridge area and tapering down from there towards the sides, back and soundhole. Picture an egg shape carving. However, this is just one way of doing things out of SEVERAL. Everyone has a different method. You can also glue in the struts on a radiused dish and line the mold/workboard with a cork insert ala William Cumpiano's method from his book "Guitarmaking" to allow the top to lay in there face down so that the dome has somewhere to lay into.

Check out www.onlineapprentice.com for pics, details and ideas. I'm actually doing this class too and building a Miguel Rodriguez classical using cedar for the top and Palo Escrito for the back and sides. Here's a pic of that guitar so far.



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Ramón -> RE: Building a Flamenco Guitar - 5 (May 20 2006 3:32:11)

Tom...

The link doesn't work. Any idea what happened to them? I google'd it, and it's the correct address, but nothing...

My Rodriguez has a near-Reyes bracing pattern, so I'm looking at the curves in the top and will just follow that. It almost seems like what Tom B describes.

Back to work on it tomorrow!

(and thank you for the info...)



TANúñez -> RE: Building a Flamenco Guitar - 5 (May 20 2006 4:45:57)

Didn't know the link wasn't working. I haven't been on that site in a few days so don't know what happened. Hopefully it's just temporarily out.

Do you own a Miguel Rodriguez? I'm not big on classicals but I'm fond of Rodriguez' work.



Ramón -> RE: Building a Flamenco Guitar - 5 (May 20 2006 5:34:38)

I have a peghead blanca Jose Rodriguez, who was a disciple of Miguel, and came to own Miguel's tools. My neighbor owns 5 Miguel Rodriguez classicals (he's a concert classical guitarist), and he says that my 'Jose' feels very much like a 'Miguel' flamenco; very dry, very punchy, LOTS of volume and sustain, but quite even across...(I love this thing)!

I looked inside, and it uses a rather similar bracing pattern, and the curves on the top are VERY slight, the body is quite even, and only a slight side-to-side curve on the back. Seems a lot what Tom B describes, so I'm using this for visual clues....

And if my creation comes out half as good as my Rodriguez, I'll have died and gone to heaven...Or Sevilla...!

R



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TANúñez -> RE: Building a Flamenco Guitar - 5 (May 20 2006 12:08:18)

Did you get this Rodriguez from ebay? I think I remember seeing one there not too long ago.

Remember, since Jose learned from Miguel, he's probably doing more or less what his Maestro did. Rodriguez is also from Cordoba as is Reyes. I wouldn't be surprised if they each took idea off each other.



Ramón -> RE: Building a Flamenco Guitar - 5 (May 20 2006 16:40:47)

Hola Tomas,

Yes, I knew they were from the same area, and although differences are slight - it's obvious that they developed in the same place.

Yes, you saw right. I took a chance, but everyone who has played it has been drop-jawed, so the chance was worth it... [:)] Just gets better and better...

Off to work on my Reyes..... Hey, where do you get the fish glue? Does it dry hard like hide? Have to heat, etc??

Gracias...



TANúñez -> RE: Building a Flamenco Guitar - 5 (May 20 2006 17:28:12)

You can order the fish glue from Lee Valley.

http://www.leevalley.com/home.aspx?c=



Ramón -> RE: Building a Flamenco Guitar - 5 (May 21 2006 2:46:37)

Thanks for the tip on fish glue! I mentioned it to Bob, and he said; "Oh yea! I love that stuff, but my source dried up..."

So I'm ordering the big bottle tonight!

Finished the solera today... WHATAPAININTHEASS! I made 3 'countours' for the shape of the soundboard...

First was junk...

The second one went on the solera and got feathered in, and was, like, backwards? Weird...Had to get used to seeing it upside down, you know? Was NOT happy with that one. (I could use Bob's, but he builds off a solera he made at Romanillo's place).

So today I cut my third masonite template, and was power sanding and hand sanding, and it is just such a complex curve that I looked at it and said; "There has GOT to be an easier way.." Way too much time, effort, questionable outcome.....

So I cut the outside edge of that masonite piece I was shaping that runs along the outline of the guitar, about 1/4" wide, and glued it around the inside edge.

This thin little edge was a dream to shape with a rasp and block, and I could sooooo easily control what would be the final shape of the face back there!

I then cut the INSIDE edge of my shape template, and tacked that on to the solera around about where it would taper out to nothing; just on the back edge of the bridge and slightly around and up onto the bout.

I then took a straight edge plastic squeege, filled the bed with bondo, and screeded the fill into the area. I slid across the top of the 1/4" back edge that I'd glued and shaped, and used the inside area as a guide to 'feather' in the bondo to 'zero'.

After that, a hard and soft block, straight-edge scrapers, etc., took down the excess, until I now have a PERFECT shape on the solera to work on, the roll behind the bridge to the back edge is slight, and there is just a nice, very slight roll from edge to edge (but FLAT under the bridge). It looks very much lke my Rodriguez, now, and Bob eyed it and said it looked really nice (finally).

So after 3 attempts, I have a solera AND I now know how to do it (if I ever want to punish myself again by building...[;)]



Armando -> RE: Building a Flamenco Guitar - 5 (May 22 2006 10:44:55)

Hi all

This is an interesting convesation.

I have also in mind to start building on a Reyes model this year.

I have found the following statement on the wesite of Tom Blackshear:

quote:

A couple of things about the way the fan braces are carved..........This is important for the right hand feel when playing the guitar. Since this is a 7 fan brace style, it is easier to explain the idea behind what Reyes may be trying to accomplish. The outside treble brace is approximately 7/32" wide, with the height being a little over 1/8th" high toward the sound hole and a little under 1/8th high at the bottom; on a long taper. The scallop on all of the struts is about 3/8th" from the tip of each end........The outside bass brace is 5/16th" wide and a little under 1/8th" high toward the sound hole and a little over 1/8th" high at the bottom. Numbering each fan brace from the bass side would be (1). 5/16th" wide, (2). 5/16th" wide, (3). 9/32" wide, (4). 9/32" wide, (5). 9/.32" wide, (6). 1/4" wide, (7). 7/32" wide. There you have the widths of each brace. Now the 5 fan braces inside or different heights but essentially about 1/8" give or take a little on the height...I'll save this information for the plan that will be offered from the GAL. "Guild of American Luthiers.".


About one year before the Reyes blueprint became availlable through luth.org i have contacted Tom Blackshear in order to get some more explanations regarding his comments about the Reyes guitar on his website. Unfortunately he wrote me, that he is not at disposal for questions related to this guitar.

Dispite of the measurements given on the blueprint the above statements declare that the outer bass and treble braces are different in size.

Having in mind that the heights of the braces are only slightly different it seems to me to be unlogic, why the outer bass brace is made wider (7.65mm) than the outer treble brace (5.35mm). This would result in a stiffer brace on the bass side which is vice versus to what most luthiers try to achieve. If these measurements are really correct, then i must say that i havn't got the idea behind the Reyes system.
But anyway, I think that it is not only the shaping of the braces that makes up the Reyes sound. There are more factors such as the doming of the top which according to the discription of Tom Blackshear is built in a rather unusual way. He did not answer my question on this issue neither.

Nevertheless i have found out, that i will never get close to an original by just copy the measurements of a specific guitar as indicated on a blueprint. This is because i know that each piece of wood is different and has different physical and tonal properties. What i want to achieve is to get a better understanding of what happens if this or that part of the guitar is adjusted. I'm looking forward that the gaitarmaking course with José Romanillos will give me some insight into such issues.


Armando



Guest -> RE: Building a Flamenco Guitar - 5 (May 22 2006 15:39:10)

I agree, It´s a weird plan and it only confirms what I´ve said before, that it´s not the plan but the builder who makes a good guitar.

I´m sure the romanillos will send you on another track, so maybe you wont even build a Reyes. Besides, IMHO, it´s bad practice to change plans every here and there, you loose what is the most important part of building, reference to what you´ve done before.[8|]

Sigüenza is a nice place. Very much central Spain and far away from Andalucía in all aspects. Enjoy it.[:)]



Doitsujin -> RE: Building a Flamenco Guitar - 5 (May 22 2006 16:18:59)

Great threat here!!



Armando -> RE: Building a Flamenco Guitar - 5 (May 22 2006 18:37:59)

Hi Anders

quote:

I´m sure the romanillos will send you on another track, so maybe you wont even build a Reyes. Besides, IMHO, it´s bad practice to change plans every here and there, you loose what is the most important part of building, reference to what you´ve done before.


I don't know if it will send me on another track. Actually i'm much more interested in flamenco guitars than in classicals as i play flamenco guitar but not classical.

The reason why i have subscribed for the romanillos course is, that i didn't find a luthier in Spain who teaches flamenco guitar construction. Besides that, i find José Romanillos to be a capacity in his trade and on top of it with a famous name. I know that classical guitars are a different story but i believe that there are also a lot of things in common. I want to get a deeper insight into guitar construction and im sure i will benefit from the course in some aspects at least.


quote:

Sigüenza is a nice place. Very much central Spain and far away from Andalucía in all aspects. Enjoy it.


Yes i have heard only good things so far about Sigüenza but be sure i'll be missing Andalucía with its Flamenco peñas, cool sherry wines and all the delicious tapas.
It's unbelievable how different Spain can be outside Andalucía.

regards

Armando



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