Flamenco Puro & the trinity balance... (Full Version)

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JBASHORUN -> Flamenco Puro & the trinity balance... (May 9 2006 21:28:53)

I was thinking about something Thomas Whitely said in one of his posts about "real" Flamenco being all about the cante. I tried to find the original words, but the post had been edited.

Anyway, it got me thinking that Flamenco Puro is made up of a trinity:

1. Cante (singing)
2. Toque (guitar playing)
3. Baile (dancing)

I would guess that these are the 3 most important factors of Flamenco... please correct me if I have left any out.

But what order do they come in? That is to say, what is the percentage of importance of each factor in making up the whole?

Is the guitar really just there to back up the cante? And is the balance similar to the estimated 90% cante, 10% toque and baile as Thomas suggests?


As usual, any informed opinions are very welcome.


Thanks,


James



Doitsujin -> RE: Flamenco Puro & the trinity balance... (May 9 2006 22:38:19)

The order depends on who is singing playing guitar or who is danceing. At the end, there is no order. In the end all have to work together. But cante cant follow the guitar, so the guitar follows the cante. Baile and guitar work very close together. There is no specific order IMO. And the percussion is a very important part of flamenco. All forget this, but without percussion its often very boring. Jaleos are very important, too.



PacoPaella -> RE: Flamenco Puro & the trinity balance... (May 10 2006 7:48:57)

In all shows i've seen (that werent solo guitar or PdL or Tomatito 'esque oriented around an outstanding guitarist) it was always a clear picking order: Cante, Baile and then the guitar together with palmas and maybe cajon. If you choose flamenco guitar its something you better learn to live with, you will always be the least admired person of the artists [8D]



henrym3483 -> RE: Flamenco Puro & the trinity balance... (May 10 2006 8:01:28)

no guitar, no drive.the guitar is the engine of the three, maybe the cante could sustain itself but the dancing would lack a "je ne sais quoi".without the guitar and the advances in flamenco guitar, imo the art itself would not be as popular.



Kate -> RE: Flamenco Puro & the trinity balance... (May 10 2006 9:01:49)

Some of the best cante I have heard has been a cantaor with just their knuckles marking compás on a table. Some of the most authentic dance I have seen were young people in the streets dancing to palmas and bottles being hit with sticks. A flamenco song came out of the same neighbourhood which talks about no-one having a guitar, a cousin has one with no strings but no money to buy more. They sang this on the tour we took of the US, 2 singers, 3 percussionists and a dancer. This Semana Santa I was in the Sacromonte for the Gitanos procession, groups of youngsters stood around in circles clapping palmas, no-one sang, no-one danced, there was no guitar but it doesn't get more flamenco than that.

Kate



Doitsujin -> RE: Flamenco Puro & the trinity balance... (May 10 2006 9:52:35)

In newer interviews very popular guitarrists (many) said that guitarrists dont get the respect which they have to get. They are all very pissed off about that. For me, flamenco without guitar is very boring. Solo cante without guitar is horrible IMO. Dance solo de pie is ok, but not a whole coeography. The only thing which works perfectly with the others together and solo, too is the guitar. I think the rating of importance in flamenco lacks. All four singing, dancing, guitar AND percussion have the same importance. The guitar has the hardest job, it have to build up the harmonical basis and push to help that the singer and the dancer can shine. The job of the singer is easyer coz he doesnt have to feel what the guitar is feeling or the dance. And the guitar has to feel and play what the dance is saying. Only during sole parts the guitar is noones slave and can say what it is feeling. The percussion is a thankless job. It have to push all the other 3. Its like the job of a bass in a band. Without is sounds empty but if its there, no one spends attention..
I think the order who have to push who doesnt depend on importance, it depends on the ability to be able to push the others. The singer cant follow the guitar and the dance cant do that, too. Only the percussion. The dance and the guitar is more flexible, so the help the singer. To rate which is the most important thing is...
Its like to think about what is more important,... the brain or the heart....or maybe the lunge???? If one of them isnt there you are dead. So there is no order of importance. Only and ore who is able to follow the others.
If we only focus on that, the one who can follow and push most of the others is the most important one. And it would be the percussion, than the guitar than the dance and at the end with less importance the singing.

Just some thoughts. For me they have to work 100% together. So all have exactly the same importance.



Kate -> RE: Flamenco Puro & the trinity balance... (May 10 2006 10:22:27)

I also second Doitsujun's comment about jaleo. There are people who specialise in jaleo and this encourages the artists and drives a piece along. I should have said the lads in the Sacromonte that night were shouting out jaleos with their palmas.

I have heard some surreal jaleos here. One time a young lad was singing a fandango in the street. A circle formed round him of neighbours clapping compás. He sang "Mi mare iba a morir, porque se puso muy enfermo..." ( My mother was going to die because she had become very ill....) the handclaps were ecstatic, the jaleo pushed him on and despite the tragic song it all seemed joyful. He sang of going to church every day to beg to Jesus, his voice in a twisted agony when someone cried out " Viva tu Mare" I'm afraid I fell about laughing but I couldn't begin to explain why it seemed inappropiate to me for someone to shout out 'long live your mother' when you are lamenting her death. Anyway with Jaleo, whatever they shout out it is always in compás.

Another aspect is the immense difference between flamenco shows with paying audience and flamenco at home as part of flamenco life. There's also a big difference between audience expectation at flamenco shows in Spain and for those abroad. I am booking the flamenco for this years festival in Rovinj, Croatia again this year and they want dance, the dancer is the star, and they even request that we add more dancers to the existing show. Even when booking guitarists we almost always get asked to have dancer as well. For many foreigners quite simply Flamenco is dance.

Son de la Frontera are a great band, great musicians and their recording is fantastic but in the live performance the dancing steals the show in the end.

Kate



el ted -> RE: Flamenco Puro & the trinity balance... (May 10 2006 10:23:05)

Cante,baile,guitar. No question. I have a lot of cassettes of the older style of flamenco were the cante is outstanding, but the guitar accompaniment is minimal.



Doitsujin -> RE: Flamenco Puro & the trinity balance... (May 10 2006 10:50:42)

.



ivan -> RE: Flamenco Puro & the trinity balance... (May 10 2006 17:21:48)

I agree Kate. what great response. Some of the best flamenco I've seen is also on the streets in Andalucia w/ people who have the most beat up broken guitars. It's wonderful.
Ivan



Exitao -> RE: Flamenco Puro & the trinity balance... (May 11 2006 5:14:49)

quote:

Son de la Frontera are a great band, great musicians and their recording is fantastic but in the live performance the dancing steals the show in the end.


I have one of their CDs loaded in my MP3 player. The first time I heard them, I didn't like the pitch of the guitar, but when I heard their use of percussion I fell in love.

The thing about zapateo and palmas is that they also count as percussion.

There's a Japanese group called Kodo that uses traditional taiko drums and tries experiment. 80% of their music is all percusion, but they also have shouts/chants mixed in and you don't miss other instruments or get the feeling of boredom you would with a modern drum-kit solo.

I think Flamenco is similar in that aspect, except the zapateo/baile has the added visual aspect.

I don't think you can create a trinity that applies to all flamenco. I think different palos might have different orders. For different palos you can you could omit one of your trinity completely and you wouldn't necessarily hurt the music.
But when you've got the fuller sounds happening you do need to add in jaleos.



Kate -> RE: Flamenco Puro & the trinity balance... (May 12 2006 8:36:37)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Exitao
The first time I heard them, I didn't like the pitch of the guitar


Could it be that its not the guitar but the Tres cubano played by Raul Rodriguez that has an odd pitch.

Kate



Ricardo -> RE: Flamenco Puro & the trinity balance... (May 13 2006 7:39:43)

Flamenco is most powerful with all three elements. But it can certainly stand on the "leg" of any of the 3. Solo cante, solo baile, solo guitar. For the general audience of the world, an hour and a half of solo guitar is acceptable, but an hour of ONLY cante or ONLY baile?. But for the die hard flamenco, ONLY cante is fine, even all night. Many cante aficionados get bored easily with solo guitar. Dancing without music/cante for anything more than a single number or improvised footwork, is kind of strange. But the idea that all 3 elements have strength on their own, makes the group as a whole very special. In Andalucia it is always voice and guitar, and that is it most of the time interms of flamenco perfomance. Maybe one cameo dance segment. Almost no guitar solo concerts. But the real spectacle for the world outside Spain is the whole package with dancer out front, even with several dancers on stage.

Pecking order really comes from who is the most famous or most knowleadgeable of the group. If any of the group of 3 is "weak", the overall group would benefit with just the other 2. A bad guitarist does not help a strong dancer and singer, in fact it even could ruin a juerga. Likewise a bad singer is just "there" to fill in the spot where the letra goes in a dance show. So in that way I do see it as a balance, in terms of performance.

But at the heart of flamenco are the SONG forms. That means the foundation is the singing. That is why the emphasis on cante and it's importance. The dancer dances to the song, the guitarist harmonizes, the singer just sings. Rhythm, harmony, melody. Imagine the Beatles. Imagine if their music was ONLY instrumentals. Imagine if they never used guitar or drums/bass, only sang acapella. Imagine all the people....


Ricardo



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