Building a Flamenco Guitar - 4

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Ramón -> Building a Flamenco Guitar - 4 (May 1 2006 23:33:53)
Not a lot of progress today (only 2 hours to work, but the neck is quite detailed and laborous. Also waiting for my bracewoods to arrive so I can begin on the soundboard. Both sides are now bent, and spent a few hours today, shaping the head, and am making pattern templates from the drawings on plastic so that I can transfer the heel dimensions for final shaping. Here's a tip: Make 2 or 3 B&W cheapy prints of the plans to cut, mess, make notes on, etc... I paid $4.50 US to make a copy. Should have made 3...2 at least. Save your really good plan sheet. Would have made a good wall-hanger print with the little color photos on it... Here' a shot of the headplate, neck, and fingerboard (just laid on). Still a long ways to go on this, but I'm gaining on it.. Used an oscillating sander to shape the head so cleanly....Nice machine. In the shot, you can also see a little plastic on the left. This is cut-able with scissors, and you use a fine sandpaper to put a surface on it that accepts pencil lines well. Put a hole in it, and just hang it up, handy for use again. R Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Guest -> RE: Building a Flamenco Guitar - 4 (May 2 2006 6:43:56)
Hi Ramon Looks good what you are doing. Make sure your bracewood is 100% dry and stable before you do the bracing. It´s such a stupid thing to have the plates warp because of green bracewood[;)]

Ramón -> RE: Building a Flamenco Guitar - 4 (May 2 2006 19:54:50)
Gracias, Anders! Thank you for the tip....Being as careful as I can with such things... Off to work on my guitar right now! [:)]

Guest -> RE: Building a Flamenco Guitar - 4 (May 3 2006 7:03:00)
Another thing Ramon: I would leave the fingerboard for now. You might have to change a lot of things on it when you are going to glue it on. The neck angle is the most complicated thing on a flamenco guitar. It´s impossible to follow a plan and have the guitar come out exactly the same. The spanish neck joint is very charming, intuitive and strong (I use it myself) but guitars do never come out of the assembly jig (solera) the same everytime. There are always some difference in neck angle. This you compensate with the fingerboard, which is never completely straight underneath. A lot of builders, even VERY experienced classical builders, have made flameneco guitars with a wrong neck angle. It is not very important on a classical guitar, but on a flamenco it´s one of THE most important issues. If you give an extremely well sounding flamenco guitar with a distance between strings and soundboard at the bridge of more than 9mm to a pro, he will tell you that it sounds well, but that it´s useless. So leave the fingerboard for now. There´s a good chance that you have to change things on it and even recut the fret slots. I almost always recut the fretslots by hand after having glued the fingerboard on and having given it the last compensation. Un saludo Anders

Jim Opfer -> RE: Building a Flamenco Guitar - 4 (May 4 2006 21:54:41)
quote: If you give an extremely well sounding flamenco guitar with a distance between strings and soundboard at the bridge of more than 9mm to a pro, he will tell you that it sounds well, but that it´s useless. That's spot on Anders, 8mm is perfect but how you makers manage to do that totally mistifies me. Cheers Jim.

Jim Opfer -> RE: Building a Flamenco Guitar - 4 (May 4 2006 21:58:30)
quote: 8mm is perfect Just read your earlier post where you quote 8mm. Remember my Ramirez?

Guest -> RE: Building a Flamenco Guitar - 4 (May 5 2006 6:50:03)
O yeah, as far as I remember you Ramirez is around 7mm, which is wonderfull, but to build a new guitar with 7mm is a bit on "the edge" If it settles with time and you have to lower the saddle, you come so close to the soundboard that you might touch it while doing hard picado This with neck angle and stringheight is extremely difficult to explain. It´s there all the time. The way you bend the sides, the amount of pressure you put on the back while gluing it on etc. all affects the neck angle. So it´s a long process of compensating and controlling factors. I kind of like it and that´s why I build with the spanish heel. It´s very organic[8D] But I understand the builders to prefer the "american way" where you use some kind of dovetail joint and glue the neck on after completing the body. It makes controlling the neck angle a lot easyer.

TANúñez -> RE: Building a Flamenco Guitar - 4 (May 5 2006 12:23:36)
quote: But I understand the builders to prefer the "american way" where you use some kind of dovetail joint and glue the neck on after completing the body. It makes controlling the neck angle a lot easyer. I built my first guitar using a butt joint. Now I build with the traditional Spanish heel. It's harder for me but I enjoy it. I totally screwed up the first one I tried like this though. Neck angle came out totally wrong but oh well. It was a learning experience for me and so far I haven't made the same mistake again. Is it truely the "American way"? Fleta built his guitars with a dovetail joint way back in the day.

aarongreen -> RE: Building a Flamenco Guitar - 4 (May 5 2006 13:53:53)
I would call it more of a violin style approach. Fleta was originally trained as a violin maker so it stands to reason that he would stick with what he knew. There are definetely advantages to building in this style although the same can be said for the Spanish foot approach. For someone who is building a few guitars at a time or as a hobby, it is the best way to go IMO. I built that way for many years. Now I mortice on my neck but I do this before the back gets glued on so for that operation I still use a solea, although the neck angle is already established when I fit the neck. I do it this way as I really like to continue the back up to the heel as opposed to using a heel cap. I think it makes for a stronger neck. There is however one very major potential flaw to the Spanish foot construction. The tradition is to fit the sides into the neck slots and not glue them in. The reason is to glue them in is very hard, the glue makes the slots swell up and it is hard not to crack the side while forcing it home. The problem is there is very little structural integrity to this area. It manifests itself when the top cracks on either side of the fretboard and is not fixed. The load is then transfered solely to the transverse brace above the soundhole. Eventually that joint will fail and the top will collapse in on itself. You'll have an action of a couple of inches. I have two guitars in my shop right now with this very problem. One is a Rubio and one is a Velazquez "el classico" model back in his factory days. It is a very expensive repair, you have to remove the fretboard and rebuild the top under the fretboard. The Rubio is worh it as it is a valuable guitar. The Velazquez is so far gone that it isn't and I am making a new top for it. There are ways to keep this from happening. One is to use a shelf for the top, similar to the foot for the back. I highely recommend this. I have almost always done this and continue to do so even though I am not building "spanish foot" construction. The shelf adds a lot of stability to that area and to help prevent cracks on either side of the fretboard I make the shelf a bit narrower than the fretboard and then glue two cross grain spruce strips (about 20mm wide x 1.5 mm thick) to the top on either side of the shelf. This creates a plywood effect for the top in that area and will prevent any cracks under normal circumstances. If you don't do this then you must use two good sized transverse braces and a cross grain patch between them. This will help a lot. Another is to glue your sides in to the slots. To do this you want to make the sides fit a little on the loose side as the glue will cause the slots to swell. In thinking about this I would recommend epoxy for this joint. You can use hide glue but you will have to size the joint a few times as you are gluing to end grain and it will suck up all the glue leaving none in the joint. Hope this helps! aaron

nhills -> RE: Building a Flamenco Guitar - 4 (May 5 2006 20:13:04)
Then there's the Romanillos method of doing the sides - an oversize slot with a glued in wedge on the inside. Norman

aarongreen -> RE: Building a Flamenco Guitar - 4 (May 5 2006 22:22:39)
Your right, that is a good way to go. I never have tried it but I think it's a pretty neat trick. aaron

Garyw1960 -> RE: Building a Flamenco Guitar - 4 (May 6 2006 4:52:32)
The wedge trick is explained in a very useful book by Rik Middleton "the guitar Makers Workshop". He outlines a lot of time saving processes and home made jigs, when you combine it with the traditional must have books like Cumpiano it fills a gap. Regards Gary

Guest -> RE: Building a Flamenco Guitar - 4 (May 6 2006 8:30:21)
I will just add one little thing to this very interesting and usefull discussion: A good sized foot will also help strengthen the guitar in this area when you build "Spanish" because it takes some of the stress away from the top. In general I see bigger foots on never guitars than on older ones. This area of a guitar is very importan that it is well build. And when things go wrong it normally happens here. I called the mortise, dovetail or butt joint "American" because it´s the way the American steel string guitar is build

Ramón -> RE: Building a Flamenco Guitar - 4 (May 9 2006 3:25:56)
Hola all, I have just returned from 6 days away on business (ugh - 12 hour days, 6 days), so I'm just reading all the responses and input! Thanks! Bob Hein, the builder here, uses the Romanillos method at the neck, with the wedges. I was tempted to use it, but in talking to Tom Blackshear, he suggested I either build the plan - or just build whatever... I have decided to stick to the plan, as drawn. There is just a 'side-thickness' slot on either side of the neck for the sides, and I can use a very thin wedge to take up any gap I might have, although a 'dry run' shows it to be quite snug. The Romanillos method is quite nice - but why build a Reyes if I am not building a Reyes, tu sabes? Also, I have left the appropriate thickness to the fretboard, etc., for final sanding and leveling BY HAND. Today, I cut all my braces, leaving all slighty thick, so they will be 'tuned by hand' as I begin the back and top. Tom Blackshear says there is a "slight curve from bridge to back edge of the guitar"..."slight"....Is that a unit of measure??? So I am going to add a 1/8" thick piece of masonite to the back edge of the solera, up to the bridge, and feather the edges and back to '0'...There are many areas of this plan somewhat open to interpretation...Even with Bob's experience, he's curious as to the lack of many details and measurements... Used some VERY straight-grained German Spruce for my braces, soundhole backing, etc., and all are laid onto a flat board for a bit more air/curing. I have a tremendous new-found respect for builders and their prices...lol...Struggling with the decision to build a rosette, or use the one I have.... R Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

JBASHORUN -> RE: Building a Flamenco Guitar - 4 (May 9 2006 18:31:49)
quote: Struggling with the decision to build a rosette, or use the one I have.... Try and build a replica of a Reyes rosette if you have access to a pattern for one. Jb

Sammy K -> RE: Building a Flamenco Guitar - 4 (May 10 2006 19:07:25)
Hello... Interesting discussion... I use the Romanillos method nowadays. I find it easy to assemble sides with it and have had no problems since. I recommend. [:D]

Ramón -> RE: Building a Flamenco Guitar - 4 (May 11 2006 2:31:09)
Bob and I discussed the Romanillos Method today, and he said it IS a bit trickier, but now that he has the jigs for it - and the experience - he says it's a pretty slick method. The Reyes plans will make it hard to shim - if necessary - and I can see why. However, as I said, I"m going to stick to the plans. Tom's 'Reyes' guitars are getting rave reviews, so I'm not going to mix and match. Spent a bit of time today cutting all the fan braces to exact lengths and heights, cross braces to exact heights (nearly - saving a hair for final sanding/tuning), soundhole brace, etc... finished the bridge-brace (contra puente) which is only 1/32" at the center and tapers to zero, so sanding is pretty precise. Our humidity in San Diego is running in the high 60% right now, so Bob has got me readying all the braces and such for a "Glue Day" to the top, so when humidity drops, I can move... Also spent the day readying my solera. Had to shave a piece of 1/8" masonite from 1/8th to Zero, so that the last edge from behind the bridge to the bottom edge will have a slight roll. That's all glued and ready for final fairing/sanding. Hard to work on items for BUILDING the guitar - NOT the guitar itself! [:@] Patience patience patience...... My mantra! R

Francisco -> RE: Building a Flamenco Guitar - 4 (May 11 2006 5:30:26)
Sounds like things are moving right along, Ramón. I can't wait to see/hear(?) it.

Guest -> RE: Building a Flamenco Guitar - 4 (May 11 2006 6:38:56)
quote: Our humidity in San Diego is running in the high 60% right now, so Bob has got me readying all the braces and such for a "Glue Day" to the top, so when humidity drops, I can move.. Now thats the way to go. Have patience and wait until it´s under 50%. Dont worry about the Spanish heel. It works very well and millions of guitars are made that way. But glue the sides into the slots!! good luck[;)]

Ramón -> RE: Building a Flamenco Guitar - 4 (May 11 2006 17:47:18)
Gracias, Anders... I am TRYING not to be a typical American; IWANTITNOW kind of attitude (I'll have the Reyes flamenco, please, french fries and a coke...) Anders... Question, if I may (thinking ahead, I know, but will be ordering more stuff), regarding finish. I am thinking about doing a lacquer finish, back and sides, neck, etc., for a bit more protection, and French polish on the top for sound. I believe the Ramirez shop is now using this combo on their 1AF's, which seems to make sense, but I had a question of color. I see that colors seem to always be IN the finish for guitars, and not as a stain, onto the wood, first, as is typical to the way we finish yacht interiors, etc. Stain the wood, then apply a clear coat. Why is this not done in guitars? Or is it to save one step? I am thinking of a somewhat 'amber' finish, and worry that 2 different finishes might color quite differently! otra vez, gracias.

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