Phrasing vs dynamics (Full Version)

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metalhead -> Phrasing vs dynamics (Jan. 12 2026 11:16:17)

What is the difference between the 2? I think I know what dynamics are: loudness or softness of a note. But what about phrasing? Somebody said it's how you let notes breathe, but I am not sure what that means.



Ricardo -> RE: Phrasing vs dynamics (Jan. 12 2026 12:07:47)

Phrasing is a more broad term that might included tone, vibrato, technique approach (how you attack or play or sing a note), connecting the notes with ligado vs detaching them with staccato, etc. We can admit that timing and dynamics play the biggest role in what will distinguish how a phrase is played of course. Dynamics really are just louder vs softer executed notes. It is impractical in many cases to signify one soft note, two loud, 5 VERY soft, one VERY loud, etc, especially with fast notes. That IS dynamics but most of the time dynamics refers to a general arc of a long passage getting louder or softer gradually or all at once suddenly. So the nuance of that language might favor "phrasing" to distinguish those to gradual or sectional dynamic approaches. But again, this is just a language issue and getting very very specific always clears things up.

here, "the PHRASING of your compás or rhythm playing will be the result of tempo+dynamics+technique (which strum pattern)". In spain they use "aire" and "soniquete" or "pellizco" in equally vague manner, lacking specifics. Hope that helps.



Fawkes -> RE: Phrasing vs dynamics (Jan. 12 2026 16:21:44)

Although it has come to mean all the things Ricardo mentions, the essence of phrasing is the grouping of sequences of notes to clarify meaning in the music. This may refer just to written phrase marks in the music, or to the various means a musician uses to communicate that grouping in performance. The 'breathing' is a singer's breathing, the commas and periods in the lyrics.



Arash -> RE: Phrasing vs dynamics (Jan. 12 2026 20:32:41)

Although flamenco hast strict rythm and rules, you are flexible inside that rule in your expression (length of notes, accents, silence, how you build tension and how you resolve that tension, etc.). Dynamics (loud, soft, etc.) serve phrasing and not the other way around.



mecmachin -> RE: Phrasing vs dynamics (Jan. 13 2026 11:08:45)

quote:

The 'breathing' is a singer's breathing


?



Ricardo -> RE: Phrasing vs dynamics (Jan. 13 2026 11:51:21)

quote:

The 'breathing' is a singer's breathing, the commas and periods in the lyrics.


Right, as in taking the breath or pausing is related to timing/rhythm, and the actual breath of singing vowels becomes "intensity" or dynamics (loud or soft). Since I am into both playing and singing, I often get a sense of "gearing up" mentally as I am performing in order to execute a difficult passage (perhaps the fast picado is coming, or the high held note that we don't want to run out of breath on produce a similar anticipation).



El Burdo -> RE: Phrasing vs dynamics (Jan. 13 2026 12:40:12)

quote:

Phrasing is a more broad term that might included tone, vibrato, technique approach (how you attack or play or sing a note), connecting the notes with ligado vs detaching them with staccato, etc. ... timing and dynamics play the biggest role


'Phrasing' is the meaningful rendition of music (chiefly melodies), comparable to an intelligent reading of poetry - the separation of continuous melodies into smaller units varying in length from a group of measures to a single note. 'Articulation' refers to the technical components used in this division, as referred to above. (Harvard [;)]).

But, though articulation will of necessity be used in phrasing, 'music' is that which results from the unidentifiable communion between the sensitivity of a player and instrument, other humans in the vicinity etc. It's not a combination of techniques. Words like honesty, listening (to yourself too) and giving are more appropriate than technique.

Frank Zappa once said 'make a jazz noise here'. Ditto flamenco - "oh look, I've emphasised a note and this one is a bit later than it should be. My phrasing (like my hair) must be looking good in the back!"

Guitarists are not great at this, as they mostly value technique, but think of Ella Fitzgerald, Frank Sinatra. Miles. I doubt they studied the individual components of phrasing much.

Listen to yourself and change things as you go.



Ricardo -> RE: Phrasing vs dynamics (Jan. 13 2026 17:15:57)

"Articulation" is a good word, as it relates to speech and the "clarity" of what you are trying to express musically. 9 out of 10 times both the "clarity" and the "feeling" you believe is "magic" or whatever elusive thing, comes down to a technique detail. Moraito vs Diego del Gastor, there are very "technical" things that are distinguishing that sound. Meanwhile people wrongly criticize "that guy is just technique, no feel" it is actually the fact they are not attending to such a detail. At least in my experience when I hear these things and then truly examine what the heck is going on with that different sound or expression.

"Listen to yourself then change", not as easy as it sounds. People who record themselves often have a way more objective view of "themselves", and fight with the issues of technical detail way more than people that just go at it "I just feel it man!". At the end of the day it is our mistakes that end up constructing our unique artistic personalities.



El Burdo -> RE: Phrasing vs dynamics (Jan. 13 2026 19:50:26)

quote:

9 out of 10 times both the "clarity" and the "feeling" you believe is "magic" or whatever elusive thing, comes down to a technique detail


Evening maestro.

This is the rub. I might be agreeing with you if we're saying the same thing. 'Contains' is the word. However, I'm reading you saying that it's the application of these articulations that will make your phrasing sound superior. Au contraire, mon brave. For me, that elevated quality playing will contain this control but as a result of the musician's er.... musicality. You would probably say AS A RESULT of their musicality ([:D]). Of course, you have to have learned these articulations already to be able to use them.

A drummer at my local pub in Sarf london in the 70s was fantastic. Called Martin Drew. He ended up playing with Oscar Peterson (with Niels-Henning Orsted-Pedersen, the infinitely named monster of double bass). His playing was so f* far into the pocket it was a drumming singularity. Monster swing at crotchet=60. I bet he didn't work on how best to pause; he was just a musician of the highest calibre. All the high level articulations you mention were evident in his playing by virtue of his musicality.

quote:

Listen to yourself then change

By this I don't mean listen to your soloing sometime later over a beer, but monitor what you are playing as you play it and amend what you then play as a result of what you hear. Again, it's not a trained response to certain variables, it is your response as an artist to the music you are creating. I used to sing what I wanted to play when improvising as it created something more original (than my 'stuff' linked together into a solo). Occasionally, I actually played the same thing. After a while I found that I was listening to myself as I played and following a different line as a result.



kitarist -> RE: Phrasing vs dynamics (Jan. 13 2026 19:57:06)

quote:

Dynamics (loud, soft, etc.) serve phrasing and not the other way around.


That's a pithy way to say it. I agree.



Arash -> RE: Phrasing vs dynamics (Jan. 13 2026 19:58:05)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

People who record themselves often have a way more objective view of "themselves", and fight with the issues of technical detail way more than people that just go at it "I just feel it man!".


Paco was his own worst critique. He composed something, liked it at that moment, next day he couldn't stand it. It is a fuucked up psychological thing. Then again, I see some people believe in themselves so much, that no matter how crappy they are, they think whatever they do is f-ing genius. People like Paco, are perfectionists, never happy with themselves (mostly because of upbringing, father always expected more, this and that ...), other people exact opposite. Objectively we all wanted to
say "Paco, you are the best, why aren't you 100% happy" and in other cases "dude, how about you learn some basic compas first before trying that Paco picado run at 500bpm"



Ricardo -> RE: Phrasing vs dynamics (Jan. 13 2026 22:25:49)

quote:

I bet he didn't work on how best to pause; he was just a musician of the highest calibre.


Sure. He was just born with it. Everyone who was not? Too bad. [:D][:D]



devilhand -> RE: Phrasing vs dynamics (Jan. 23 2026 22:15:08)

quote:

Frank Zappa once said 'make a jazz noise here'. Ditto flamenco - "oh look, I've emphasised a note and this one is a bit later than it should be. My phrasing (like my hair) must be looking good in the back!"

Guitarists are not great at this, as they mostly value technique, but think of Ella Fitzgerald, Frank Sinatra. Miles. I doubt they studied the individual components of phrasing much.

But classical guitarists are different. One can say classical guitar or piano masterclasses usually focus on phrasing.



devilhand -> RE: Phrasing vs dynamics (Jan. 23 2026 22:26:28)

quote:

but most of the time dynamics refers to a general arc of a long passage getting louder or softer gradually or all at once suddenly.

There's an interesting rule of phrasing: Ascending melody should be played with a crescendo and descending melody with a decrescendo.



Ricardo -> RE: Phrasing vs dynamics (Jan. 24 2026 16:19:01)

There is no rule like that. If you write music on Guitar pro or other software and don't put dynamics, the frequencies alone are louder as you go higher, giving the illusion of louder dynamics. If anything and you want to flatten those dynamics mechanically when playing you should do the opposite of what you said is a "rule". I have to do it all the time if I am writing music just to check how it sounds and the low notes start disappearing in the audio spectrum. Same with strumming chords...you stack a bunch of notes it gets really loud and when we strum compás there are all kinds of subtle loud and soft attacks that make the music sound like it does, and a computer playback of chords sounds really funny without those.

When it comes to classical music interpretation the only "rules" here would be to execute whatever the composer put into the score, or do as your professor tells you to make him or her happy, and hopefully you gain an intuition to do things similar on your own, or deliberately do the opposite of what you have been told simply because you CAN and want to. Again that Steve Vai exercise is really great...TRY YOUR BEST to play a simple melody that repeats, one time flat with no dynamic vibrato or "expression" of any kind, like a computer. It turns out to be very hard to not have any personal nuance there whatsoever....then as you repeat it start adding your own things to it, getting more and more "personal" every pass. He did this for his tune "For the love of god".



devilhand -> RE: Phrasing vs dynamics (Feb. 1 2026 9:24:45)

Phrasing really makes the difference.

https://m.youtube.com/shorts/jXEGSZKOGqI

https://m.youtube.com/shorts/qvCWiOC-F3g

https://m.youtube.com/shorts/Rkv42pDeJaE

https://m.youtube.com/shorts/wWvITh9jizM

https://m.youtube.com/shorts/C8krqM0lUmM



Arash -> RE: Phrasing vs dynamics (Feb. 1 2026 14:03:44)

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

Phrasing really makes the difference.

https://m.youtube.com/shorts/jXEGSZKOGqI

https://m.youtube.com/shorts/qvCWiOC-F3g

https://m.youtube.com/shorts/Rkv42pDeJaE

https://m.youtube.com/shorts/wWvITh9jizM

https://m.youtube.com/shorts/C8krqM0lUmM


Yes, but only if you stay in the classical world.

These examples and the comments for each good and bad version, can not be always applied 1:1 to flamenco. Even to the free forms of flamenco. Flamenco is it's own beast when it comes to dynamics and phrasing. Plus, all the different "schools" and their nuances, make it even more complicated. For example Cano Roto has some very deliberately "dirty, unclean"rasgueados passages, which is part of that aire or "phrasing" (if you want to call it that).

You don't want to always be "lyrical and singing through the strings, cleanest and warmest" like in her examples. And vice versa, "accompaniment louder than melody", "buzzing", etc. which are always mentioned and seen as "bad" in classical and thus in her examples and her comments always the worst version, can be exact opposite in flamenco.



Ricardo -> RE: Phrasing vs dynamics (Feb. 1 2026 14:39:31)

playing out of rhythm is not "phrasing" unfortunately.



Arash -> RE: Phrasing vs dynamics (Feb. 1 2026 20:01:18)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

playing out of rhythm is not "phrasing" unfortunately.


are you refering to the lady?



Ricardo -> RE: Phrasing vs dynamics (Feb. 2 2026 12:00:06)

quote:

are you refering to the lady?


And anybody the heck else that thinks that playing in time=no expression, as she demonstrated. Then proceeds to use rubato and claim that is "phrasing" and the other was devoid of it. Anyway all the other changes in her examples, fixing buzzing etc., it is all technical or "technique" based examples as I was saying earlier. Anybody that wants to use good "phrasing" and whatever expression that many people call "feeling" the music, needs to start with FEELING the timing exactly right (big letters for Burdo who loves when I use them).



Arash -> RE: Phrasing vs dynamics (Feb. 2 2026 12:29:48)

got it



El Burdo -> RE: Phrasing vs dynamics (Feb. 2 2026 20:17:30)

quote:

(big letters for Burdo who loves when I use them).


Pant! Hold me down!



metalhead -> RE: Phrasing vs dynamics (Feb. 4 2026 6:26:01)

a few months ago, I had come across a post on a popular guitar subreddit about somebody asking how to play in time. I was surprised to see that despite a few comments advising to practise with a metronome, many were saying to not get too "obsessed" with the metronome as that will make you rigid and sound "soulless". Music is all about time.



Ricardo -> RE: Phrasing vs dynamics (Feb. 4 2026 12:27:12)

quote:

I was surprised to see that despite a few comments advising to practise with a metronome, many were saying to not get too "obsessed" with the metronome as that will make you rigid and sound "soulless".


That is the all too familiar comment by the intermediate level people that struggle with techniques. It is the same comment we hear from the same people that say "that guy plays too many notes"... a famous movie about Mozart had the envious guy knowing that was a ridiculous comment yet defending it, demonstrating the defensive position the mediocre competitive folks need to feel good about themselves in the face of guys that are way ahead of the curve.

I have yet to meet a person that is comfortable with a metronome in recording studios (or drum machine in live settings) that is "rigid and soulless". It is generally the exact opposite. As an example there is a guitar trio piece called Beyond the Mirage (Paco and Al dimeola etc.) that was recorded as a duet between Al and Manuel Barrueco. Barrueco admitted how hard the rhythm was to feel comfortable (it is a simple rumba), and his performance by comparison of the sort of "rigid" and unrelaxed issue I always hear from guys that fight that metronome click. Or watch John Williams, a supposed technical robot struggle to keep a basic sevillanas rhythm together with Paco Peña...he basically falls off the tempo after only some seconds and never makes it through the entire piece as a duet (they actually have some very good flamenco fusions with inti ilimani so I don't mean to put him down, but to highlight the challenge about time keeping). I have seen very advanced/seasoned artists that after working with a click track or etc, arrive at a brand new sense of the concept and take it with them to other projects, basically proving the concept that it will NEVER hurt anybody using it correctly.

The correct way is to make it appear like the "click" or whatever mechanical time keeper, is a "person" following YOUR tempo expression. That is where the feeling comes from actually, and it can be subtle to obvious depending, but takes lots of practice and experience. Nobody is just born grooving, it is work, and that work never really ends.



devilhand -> RE: Phrasing vs dynamics (Feb. 8 2026 16:11:38)

quote:

make you rigid and sound "soulless".

I would not say metronom makes you sound rigid or soulless. It will make you dependent on it.
The ultimate goal is to wean yourself off of the metronom as Mr. Wooten said. I agree with him.

"My goal is to wean myself off of the metronome so that the good time is coming from me"
Victor Wooten



Richard Jernigan -> RE: Phrasing vs dynamics (Feb. 8 2026 18:05:03)

quote:

When it comes to classical music interpretation the only "rules" here would be to execute whatever the composer put into the score, or do as your professor tells you to make him or her happy, and hopefully you gain an intuition to do things similar on your own, or deliberately do the opposite of what you have been told simply because you CAN and want to.


Years ago I saw a video about Isaac Stern, the famous violinist. In one scene he is teaching a master class to an Israeli string quartet. The players were men in their early to mid-twenties.

The quartet played Beethoven for a fairly long bit, then Stern held up a hand to stop them. "Remember what we discussed about this passage yesterday?" he asked, then nodded for them to continue. The quarter played the passage with different phrasing, paused for Stern's comment. Stern nodded in satisfaction.

After the class the narrator of the documentary asked Stern whether he meant for the quartet always to play the passage according to his suggestion.

"Of course not. They are adults. They can play it according to their taste. They played it the way I suggested just to show that they understood."

RNJ



RobF -> RE: Phrasing vs dynamics (Feb. 8 2026 21:41:31)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

I was surprised to see that despite a few comments advising to practise with a metronome, many were saying to not get too "obsessed" with the metronome as that will make you rigid and sound "soulless".

...
The correct way is to make it appear like the "click" or whatever mechanical time keeper, is a "person" following YOUR tempo expression. That is where the feeling comes from actually, and it can be subtle to obvious depending, but takes lots of practice and experience. Nobody is just born grooving, it is work, and that work never really ends.


It's like that Carol Kaye video where she says you have to be able to make the click track swing. She then starts to play along with a basic drum click track and all of a sudden it comes to life.



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