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Ricardo -> RE: Science news (Nov. 24 2025 15:02:15)
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yes looks quite pointless. What they needed to realize first is the letras can be divided first mathematically, ignoring traditional applications. By that I mean 8 syllable 4 line verse for Romances, Solea, Tona/martinete etc, tiento tango, and all Fandango family are interchangeable. Next the 3 and 5 line verse of those 8 syllables, including a subset for the zero verse in the 3 line family, as covering Solea/Buleria/Tango etc.. The 5 line being Fandango family specific (the formal structure allows both 4 and 5 Line for the same styles whereas the Solea derivatives change the form via the line number and delivery, which strongly separates the two families. Interesting to note there will be examples of a 4 line verse interchanging between fandango and Solea families, and also we can find 5 line alterations to a 4 line standard, which we can infer from the poem itself that the verse was adapted for use with a fandango of some sort, I saw this in Borrow vs Demofilo examples). The final math category will be the seguidilla/serrana, 5+7 family.
Once that math gets clarified then they could in theory run a bunch of letras that combine with Demofilo and Borrow to "modern" ones and try to find old collections of poetry that maps to those models. I suspect that a collection might have once existed that constitutes a "source" from either an individual or a collective. I lean in the direction of Renaissance humanist poets, but have not located a published version that matches what I envision. There was a collection of Romances by Gongora that were interesting to me, and as mentioned earlier the Briseño collection has interesting overlap with our flamenco (namely the cielito lindo seguidilla/serrana), but what I am envisioning is a specific group of poems in a singular collection, more like hand written (MS) rather than published. And more specifically, the Borrow reference of "Los del Aficion" once collected by Luis Lobo (?), from late 1780s (50 years prior to Borrow's encounter with the lottery salesman that memorized a bunch of it).
It would be interesting to see what AI might come up with someday. The interchangeability of the letras between palos (contrafaction) negates the thematic correlations in general, and the math of seguidilla also negates thematic "correct assignments" of those (because we don't see Solea letras adapted to siguiryas unless the poetic math itself gets altered which is harder to do than the 4 vs 5 line cases where altering just means adding a line of verse that may or may not rhyme).
In terms of melody, my own brain ran the algorithm over 20 some years and it allowed me to stumble on what I think is the origin of the palos musically (melody and harmony, and loosely, the compas phrasing as well). AI should be able to do the same thing but you have to feed it the better transcriptions and versions accepted by aficionados as interpretations considered "puro". That turns out to be the more difficult challenge. As an example I provided some correlations to Ocon in that thread about Arabic cante.
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