Jerez, do we really need to go there? (Full Version)

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Morante -> Jerez, do we really need to go there? (Mar. 8 2025 16:10:09)

El Cante



RobF -> RE: Jerez, do we really need to go there? (Mar. 9 2025 12:59:28)

I'd like to. We have the technology, I just need the currency.



BarkellWH -> RE: Jerez, do we really need to go there? (Mar. 9 2025 14:56:58)

I bring jerez to me in the form of copitas of fino and, my favorite, amontillado.

Bill



orsonw -> RE: Jerez, do we really need to go there? (Mar. 9 2025 14:59:47)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Morante

El Cante


Right there in Jerez, they are now pondering this same question. (Though I wouldn't always be expecting too much from cante p'atrás these days? And it is a festival for baile afterall.)

"...sabes porque el flamenco tiene este abanico increíble maravilloso y Y entonces hay que hay que respetar todas las partes porque todo es es muy buenoel nivel de la guitarra, de la del baile, del... bueno, del Cante es más difícil..."

"... y siempre vas buscando ese primera inspiración que te dijo el flamenco, sí, y a veces no se encuentra... "

But they also acknowledge that people have always been saying things like this.

"...es consustancial a la historia del flamenco el que se diga que que nada es como lo anterior que ya no se escucha lo de antes que ya no se va igual que antes que estamos en una fase crítica que el flamenco pero realmente el flamenco no desaparece y tiene la habilidad de sobrevivir..."





Ricardo -> RE: Jerez, do we really need to go there? (Mar. 9 2025 20:29:14)

Carl Sagan compiled a bunch of music sent out on the voyager space probes, the records last a billion years at least. I doubt any cante performances made it.

Perhaps we can come up with a list of essential cante performances that must be preserved for a billion years?

I nominate Granaina, Malagueña, and minera of Chacon, Siguiriyas, Malagueña (Canario), and Rondeña of M. Torre, Soleá (alcala and Serneta) of Pavón, Fandango by Nino de gloria, Malagueña mellizo by Pena hijo, Fandango by Caracol, Buleria por solea and Malagueña de mellizo by Terremoto, and bulerías of Maria Vargas w. Cepero.



RobF -> RE: Jerez, do we really need to go there? (Mar. 9 2025 21:38:29)

quote:

Carl Sagan compiled a bunch of music sent out on the voyager space probes, the records last a billion years at least. I doubt any cante performances made it.

Perhaps we can come up with a list of essential cante performances that must be preserved for a billion years?


Great...with all the talk of the internet producing wiz-kids on guitar with no appreciation of the deeper roots now you're pushing for a bunch of aliens with seven fingers on each hand who think ai-ay-aiii is a mating call showing up and smoking Paco de Lucía while stealing all our women. Great...just great...



Manitas de Lata -> RE: Jerez, do we really need to go there? (Mar. 9 2025 22:47:42)

funny , while i was searching for some manolo sanlucar stuff , i saw a guy on a talent show in spain playing manolo piece , and one of the judges was jose merce...[:D]

What jose told him after the performance... , that the worked with manolo on that piece/record , that he (the performer) knowed what he was doing , he played nice, altough it lacked "flamencura" ....
And i agree...

I think everyone wants performance , and kind of show of , like the Antonio Toledo cheap guitar that sound loud , everyone wants a cheap or just loud guitar.
I think its more easy to find the Flamencura on the cante and dance.
regarding guitar and playing style , im seeking the Flamencura.



Ricardo -> RE: Jerez, do we really need to go there? (Mar. 9 2025 22:59:28)

quote:

im seeking the Flamencura.


That is subjective nonsense. Likely there is an objective technical explanation. Dynamics, timing, etc. Manolo did not believe in "duende" and ironically, he had tons of it. [:D]



Stu -> RE: Jerez, do we really need to go there? (Mar. 10 2025 8:17:09)

so....er the answer implied is ...yes?

Is this a thread where we each individually make up what we think it really means? or do you all know and im slow in cottoning on.



RobF -> RE: Jerez, do we really need to go there? (Mar. 10 2025 8:48:48)

I think he was inspired by the title of a thread in the off-topic section.

But while we're at it...the walk-around video Henry did a few years ago during one of his visits there was pretty cool. I know there's a lot of effort involved in putting something like that together but it'd be great to see other members doing similar stuff. Not just of visits to places in Andalucía, but even their own hometowns. Ahhhh...what am I thinking....



orsonw -> RE: Jerez, do we really need to go there? (Mar. 10 2025 10:11:33)

quote:

Perhaps we can come up with a list of essential cante performances that must be preserved for a billion years?

I nominate Granaina, Malagueña, and minera of Chacon, Siguiriyas, Malagueña (Canario), and Rondeña of M. Torre, Soleá (alcala and Serneta) of Pavón, Fandango by Nino de gloria, Malagueña mellizo by Pena hijo, Fandango by Caracol, Buleria por solea and Malagueña de mellizo by Terremoto, and bulerías of Maria Vargas w. Cepero.


How many recordings can be included on the list 20, 50? If one recognises that flamenco is a living thing, or at least has been until recently? It's very early life was not recorded, only it's mid and later. Perhaps should include not only what one likes best but what shows the life of flamenco? Including it's death, if that's what one thinks has happened. Here are some to add (I've excluded others that I also personally like).

La Niña de los Peines por solea, tangos, Antonio Mairena por solea, martinete, La Paquera por buleria, La Perla por alegrias, buleria, Chocolate por solea, Manuel Agujetas, Fernanda Utrera por solea, Camaron por buleria, rumba, Enrique Morente e.g. Sueña La Alhambra/Omega, Miguel Poveda, Israel fernandez, Rosalia, Angeles Toledano.



Manitas de Lata -> RE: Jerez, do we really need to go there? (Mar. 10 2025 10:52:32)

its all about to put the feeling to it , were talkin about flamenco , but we could talk about any other style.
and for example you can do it ,and i believe that you can do it also in other styles
not talkin about pure skill , but interpretation , to put your soul in it.
i think its the capacity to transmit an emotion to someone

I remember many years ago , when i was learning one of the easy classical pieces , the first that you learn , that when i was capable to play it the guy got piss off with me , and said that wasnt right, that we have to put the feeling on it every time that we play... , and that was also a form to respect the song/music and not playing in a Dull way or play like a robot.
And thats hard

I dont have a word thats describe all , maybe duende is right regarding to Federico Garcia Lorca



Ricardo -> RE: Jerez, do we really need to go there? (Mar. 10 2025 15:41:48)

quote:

its all about to put the feeling to it , were talkin about flamenco , but we could talk about any other style.
and for example you can do it ,and i believe that you can do it also in other styles
not talkin about pure skill , but interpretation , to put your soul in it.
i think its the capacity to transmit an emotion to someone


Right, well playing with "feeling" is subjective nonsense. Like Dimeola accordion moves me to tears, and to you it is fake digital garbage. [:D]. No human has a right to say either way, but keyboard warriors make a career of it.



Morante -> RE: Jerez, do we really need to go there? (Mar. 10 2025 16:05:12)

quote:

maybe duende is right regarding to Federico Garcia Lorca


Lorca was just a rich kid who fell in with a few posers, mostly homosexual like him. His essay on duende only shows that he had no idea. The concurso de Granada, where he was led by the nose by de Falla was ridiculous.

His bad luck was that el Falange did not like gays.



Manitas de Lata -> RE: Jerez, do we really need to go there? (Mar. 10 2025 16:52:02)

theres homos everywhere , even gipsies.... [:D] , dont care



Morante -> RE: Jerez, do we really need to go there? (Mar. 10 2025 16:53:43)

quote:


theres homos everywhere , even gipsies.... , dont care


We were talking about duende[:@]



Manitas de Lata -> RE: Jerez, do we really need to go there? (Mar. 10 2025 17:03:47)

well , maybe thats also a factor that separates ok-medium to good or very good.
the most poor singing gipsy can put a show , not by his singing skills but for what he transmits
and you have nice singers that dont transmit anything



Manitas de Lata -> RE: Jerez, do we really need to go there? (Mar. 10 2025 17:12:28)

well , hes a reference



silddx -> RE: Jerez, do we really need to go there? (Mar. 10 2025 19:49:06)

quote:

theres homos everywhere , even gipsies.... , don't care


Even in Leicester?



metalhead -> RE: Jerez, do we really need to go there? (Mar. 10 2025 20:10:11)

I realised recently that anybody who composes something with effort is playing with 'feeling'. In that sense, I realise I was wrong about Antonio Rey not playing with feeling



Manitas de Lata -> RE: Jerez, do we really need to go there? (Mar. 10 2025 21:40:55)

i dont know Leicester (i guess) , want to buy a caravan? do you like daugs?



Mark2 -> RE: Jerez, do we really need to go there? (Mar. 10 2025 22:43:53)

I was walking out of a VA concert and two guys were talking about the concert and one said "Great technique, but no feeling"
I wanted to say that if you think he has no feeling you don't know or like flamenco guitar, but I just kept walking. People who know VA's playing I've related this story to were incredulous. "He's ALL feeling" was said by more than one.

My buddy who is from Seville thanked me for my "Flamencura"
I think he meant that for someone from California to be that into flamenco they must be crazy. He's at least half right.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

its all about to put the feeling to it , were talkin about flamenco , but we could talk about any other style.
and for example you can do it ,and i believe that you can do it also in other styles
not talkin about pure skill , but interpretation , to put your soul in it.
i think its the capacity to transmit an emotion to someone


Right, well playing with "feeling" is subjective nonsense. Like Dimeola accordion moves me to tears, and to you it is fake digital garbage. [:D]. No human has a right to say either way, but keyboard warriors make a career of it.



Manitas de Lata -> RE: Jerez, do we really need to go there? (Mar. 10 2025 23:16:12)

if they talked JC , i would understand and agree.

Some days a go i saw a short from a gig of AR , and it was just mental.... i think it was a picado full of intention and meaning , great performance and feel , just crazy



Stu -> RE: Jerez, do we really need to go there? (Mar. 11 2025 7:58:03)

quote:

I think he was inspired by the title of a thread in the off-topic section.


ah thanks rob. i dont visit that section much. thanks for the hint! [:)]



Stu -> RE: Jerez, do we really need to go there? (Mar. 11 2025 8:22:01)

quote:

Jerez, do we really need to go there?  


the answer then is yes!

if only to wince at cockroaches running from drain to drain as I stagger home from a bar at 2am!

oh yeah and cante is kind of ok too[;)]

1st time i went to jerez, I was kinda blown away but the random singing in public spaces.

every time ive been its been kinda magical in some way.

so yeah we have to go!



El Burdo -> RE: Jerez, do we really need to go there? (Mar. 11 2025 9:20:36)

quote:

I was walking out of a VA concert and two guys were talking about the concert and one said "Great technique, but no feeling"


'Feeling' is as likely perceived as transmitted. You can only know your own response. If you don't get it, maybe they're not reaching you. OTOH, you might not get it because they're not saying anything. It's just arrogant to always say that it's the latter, though.

It is impossible to quantise, though I am certain it exists as The Goatherder says, in its combination of techniques. But, amidst those techniques...is 'feeling'.



Ricardo -> RE: Jerez, do we really need to go there? (Mar. 11 2025 10:45:31)

quote:

and you have nice singers that dont transmit anything


Mabybe to YOU, but not to me necessarily. That is my point. It is a subjective non-issue. That is why they had that scene in Amadeus "too many notes". It is preposterous to claim someone is emoting or not. It is basically the most bogus ignorant thing one could comment on considering they have no legit criticism or understanding to comment. No worries, it is typical. I am just saying throw "flamencura" into the basket with the rest.

Here is the deal. Music that I don't "get" or "feel" is usually because I don't understand something. As metalhead just said above, the human being made this piece of art for some reason. Maybe that reason was $ only, or they were drunk or high, who the F knows. Point is I can't tell you how much music I did not appreciate I later rediscovered its richness for some reason that changed my perception. It was not the fault of the artist but MY fault for being "unaware" of something important that related. Conversely there has been music that I would have died for that after learning some more about things, it is no longer so impactful. But it would be idiotic for me to claim in that case the performance lacks "soul" when it had previously knocked me out.

So when I notice something is lacking in that elusive "feel" area, I have over the year noticed my perception is rubbed wrong by some technical detail. It is never about them "emoting" a feeling of anything, I mean how the heck would I know what is going through that person's heart and mind? What I get is the connection to the instrument and the sound, or whatever it is.



Manitas de Lata -> RE: Jerez, do we really need to go there? (Mar. 11 2025 10:54:13)

well, theres a movie all filmed with black colour (no other) so you cant see nothing , but some people enjoyed.
like that banana with silvertape on top that was sold for a lot of money , someone saw art.
Whatever....



Ricardo -> RE: Jerez, do we really need to go there? (Mar. 11 2025 10:58:42)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Manitas de Lata

well, theres a movie all filmed with black colour (no other) so you cant see nothing , but some people enjoyed.
like that banana with silvertape on top that was sold for a lot of money , someone saw art.
Whatever....


That is the genius way to play upon this issue which as I said is nonsense. It basically proves what I was saying since people actually buy it. Think about how many people are moved to tears thanks to autotune.



Stu -> RE: Jerez, do we really need to go there? (Mar. 11 2025 15:26:12)

quote:

That is the genius way to play upon this issue which as I said is nonsense. People buy it.


what about this silent album that just got released?



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