Ricardo -> Manuel Torre vs. Antonio Chacón (Jan. 31 2025 14:53:51)
The age old argument, often devolving into Gitano vs payo cante. Personally, I used to study Chacón a lot, and the Gitano guitar masters Javier Molina and Ramón Montoya named him the best, head and shoulders above any others.
However lately, I have been getting into Manuel Torre, in particular his Malagueña, Taranto, Fandango, etc., often overlooked, are super cool and important. At this point I am on the fence. Sometimes Manuel is going flat pitch wise, and that used to be a big turn off for me. In today's annoying pitch corrected virtual reality, I find those little mistakes endearing. I don't like when people like Funi etc, COPY those mistakes. Most good cantores rectify those when interpreting their personal take on his cantes.
orsonw -> RE: Manuel Torre vs. Antonio Chacón (Jan. 31 2025 19:44:32)
I'm too ignorant to argue who is best. I enjoy the heated arguments the gentlemen in this rito episode are having! In my ignorance I prefer the recordings of Manuel Torres, I prefer the quality of the voice and expression. I understand the recordings of Chacon are made later in his life and do not show him at his best? And that Torres too wasn't fully captured in any recording. On recordings Chacon sounds more musical and skillful but Manuel Torres is more raw and emotional for me.
We are fortunate to have Rito y Geografía, imagine if we had the same for Torres, Chacon at their best and the pre-recording era cante legends.
Is there a particular Manuel Torres Malaguena are you referring to? e.g.
Ricardo -> RE: Manuel Torre vs. Antonio Chacón (Feb. 1 2025 15:10:25)
Yes that is a great one. The melody (by Canario) is borrowing a lot from Granaina more than typical malagueñas, and a lot of singers use it in combo with media Granainas instead of other malagueñas. So I take that as a good one to compare to Chacón’s Granaina.
Here are two that are considered different styles (malagueña vs Cartagenera) but seem based on the same melodic form/letra:
Valderrama changed the delivery and the guitarist (Pepe Martinez, despite being a Montoya student) changed the chords, realizing they never really worked to harmonize it right. He called it “Murciana”
Camarón copied that form and everybody does this now (rare version Tomatito in G#. He plays a copla falseta but doesn’t complete it at 5:22).
I tried to restore the old malagueña/taranta tonos here:
