picado and metronome (Full Version)

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rafapak -> picado and metronome (Dec. 18 2024 16:50:01)

Hi guys

I would like to ask you for help.

1. I don't know for sure if this is possible to develop a bit faster picado tempos if you don't use metronome . On the other hand I just don't know how to use metronome for picado practice. I can play for an hour in slow available tempo and nothing happens . I don't see how this might lead to increase in tempo. Maybe you guys know how to manipulate metronome so that any progress is available ?
2. Do you guys believe that playing picado is about hands anatomy and if you don't have 'guitar friendly hands anatomy' you will never be able to develop even medium tempos ? When I look at people like jeronimo carmen, atrafana guy it looks like they never practiced picado but because of their hands anatomy they are able to play picado in high tempos .



Stu -> RE: picado and metronome (Dec. 18 2024 22:05:31)

quote:

I look at people like jeronimo carmen, atrafana guy it looks like they never practiced picado


[&:]
What makes you think they never practiced picado?



rafapak -> RE: picado and metronome (Dec. 18 2024 23:32:47)

quote:

What makes you think they never practiced picado?


when you look at their fingers in right hand they perfectly fit strings and guitar in general. I think this is predispositions to play guitar we discuss here. When you watch good guitar players you know they don't have awkward hands anatomy. They have perfect guitar friendly hands anatomy. This is probably difference between those who can be professionals and those who can be amateurs. Many of us would love to be good players but predispositions (hands anatomy) makes it impossible for us. I bet they practiced but it looks like it wasn't practiced with metronome etc. In their tutorials they use metronome but I don't think they spend hours with metronome when they were learning to play.

Still , please tell me how to manipulate work with metronome so that I can start making slow progress.



Stu -> RE: picado and metronome (Dec. 19 2024 9:07:29)

No offense but I think your theories are bogus.

They would've both practiced picado plenty over the years. With a Metronome.

I get what you say about hand shape maybe making economy of movement easier, but its still takes dedicated hard work and practice. with a metronome.

Also the "perfect hands anatomy" That can just be good positoining and technique.

I guess a 6'7" person may be more 'predisposed' to become a successful basketball player, but they'd still have to spend hrs practicing and refining technique. And the height would be helpful with blocks, dunks and rebounds but theyd be less adept at ball handling, pace etc.

Same for guitar... short stuby fingers on the right hand might be great for faster picado, i dont know. but short stubby fingers on the left hand may give you more agro on the freboard?

My point is... I don't like these negative attitudes that kinda sound like 'might as well give up now, because Im already at a disadvantage' (which is a flavour from previous posts of yours on here.)

I know that's not really what you're saying because, hey you are here asking for advice to improve. (but feels like there's a hint of it)

You can improve your picado speed for sure.

There are lots of things you can do.

1. speed bursts w/metronome.
2. digital metronome with speed trainer.
3. pre planting/stacatto
4. string crossing excercises.

What are you practicing when you play picado? scales? chromatic excercies? open notes? just speeding up the mechanism?

also nail shape!! haha.

could you post a video of you playing your picado practice?]


quote:

Do you guys believe that playing picado is about hands anatomy and if you don't have 'guitar friendly hands anatomy' you will never be able to develop even medium tempos ?


I have large hands and long fingers....more vicente amigo than gerardo nunez.

my picado is much improved over the past couple of years due to changing my nail shape and studying some string crossing exercises. I have definately achieved more than a medium tempo and with minimal small practice sessions. Im sure i will keep getting faster. and could do sooner with more available time.

so NO is the answer.



Ricardo -> RE: picado and metronome (Dec. 19 2024 12:00:14)

no it is not about hands. It is about your brain though. Learning when young allows physical shortcuts in the brain involving the myelin helmet that grows back to front from birth. After age 25 you can still learn to develop speed but it is a slower process. I learned left hand speed at that younger age with pick, but when I learned flamenco I was older. The fast left hand was not help in getting comfortable with i-m alternation. But I got to a decent place THANKS to the metronome. Or rather, the drum machine in my case.

you see once you know your limits, it is not a hard concept to increase by 1 click. There are days it goes slower than others. Even for PDL, he had a routine so that he could get to his top speed in the concert by the time he needed it. Like he plays slow relaxed palo then buleria to exercise the coordination of strumming. By then he knows his speed limit of the day. I did this with drum machine over the years. By adhering to actual math and not my "sensation of speed" (which LIES to you), I was able to overcome obstacles myself. My friends in Spain that I know since 1999 started noticing my speed "break through" in like 2019 [:D][:D] 20 years later as sabicas said, 20 years of Baile and cante and you are ready for guitar solos. He meant picados [:D][:D][:D]

here learn this. whole song would be good for anyone, but look at 50:00. After that the part at 1:14:00. After a lot of repetitions the metronome slows down and starts following YOU:



metalhead -> RE: picado and metronome (Dec. 19 2024 14:35:46)

man that is some awesome playing. Also it seems like PDL really went full on jazz with this xD



metalhead -> RE: picado and metronome (Dec. 19 2024 14:36:48)

it also seemed to me like Vicente might have gotten a lot of ideas for Tres Notas from here. But I could be wrong.



devilhand -> RE: picado and metronome (Dec. 20 2024 22:07:44)

quote:

On the other hand I just don't know how to use metronome for picado practice. I can play for an hour in slow available tempo and nothing happens . I don't see how this might lead to increase in tempo.

Metronom will not increase your picado speed.
Do not practice with metronome until your picado becomes second nature.
Speed is the last thing you worry about.



silddx -> RE: picado and metronome (Dec. 21 2024 8:14:12)

quote:

I would like to ask you for help.


Have you had lessons with a real live tutor yet?



Ricardo -> RE: picado and metronome (Dec. 21 2024 16:35:56)

quote:

man that is some awesome playing. Also it seems like PDL really went full on jazz with this xD


Thanks man! When they did the first tour with Larry Coryell, Paco and Mclaughlin did not have a proper duet. They were doing lotus feet which is super boring for Paco (beautiful song, but still). So Mclaughlin was playing with pianist Egberto Gismonti (Odair Assad told me in Brazil all the musicians call him "EGO-berto", [:D]), whose music is not really "jazz", but this esoteric world music thing, caught between Brazilian Bossa and samba etc., classical, and maybe jazz in the sense there is some improvisation. So this piece had some Phrygian scales so he thought Paco could get comfortable with it. It is really not jazzy at all, except the key changes are 2-5-1 in the middle, and Ab is weird for every guitar player.



Ricardo -> RE: picado and metronome (Dec. 21 2024 16:38:35)

quote:

Metronom will not increase your picado speed.
Do not practice with metronome until your picado becomes second nature.
Speed is the last thing you worry about.


Ok, you have officially lost all good points you won recently. hey-zeus crease toe!!!!! Please NOBODY listen to this horrible statement. Back to basic rhythm dog with you!!! metronome is the ONLY way, because speed is actually rhythm control. end of story good grief.



metalhead -> RE: picado and metronome (Dec. 21 2024 17:30:48)

quote:

Ok, you have officially lost all good points you won recently


agreed, I had to recheck what he wrote [8|]



devilhand -> RE: picado and metronome (Dec. 21 2024 17:46:00)

There's more than one way to... So be cool with it.



rafapak -> RE: picado and metronome (Dec. 21 2024 23:27:35)

quote:

Have you had lessons with a real live tutor yet?


not unfortunately, there are two of them in dublin but one of them doesnt teach and mr walsh didnt respond to my message. i will try to send to him another message.



Stu -> RE: picado and metronome (Dec. 21 2024 23:38:30)

quote:

Metronom will not increase your picado speed.
Do not practice with metronome until your picado becomes second nature.
Speed is the last thing you worry about.


[:D][:D]

The Grinch has just ruined Christmas!
I was in a jolly old mood, wrapping presents and listening to some Xmas tunes.

I also heard that breathing oxygen is not necessary to keep you alive and well !

quote:

There's more than one way to... So be cool with it.


One way to what? Develop terrible technique?

Jeez, You have no idea what you are taking about so you should stop.



rafapak -> RE: picado and metronome (Dec. 21 2024 23:55:37)

quote:

Ok, you have officially lost all good points you won recently. hey-zeus crease toe!!!!! Please NOBODY listen to this horrible statement. Back to basic rhythm dog with you!!! metronome is the ONLY way, because speed is actually rhythm control. end of story good grief.


what do you mean when you say speed is rhythm control ? can you be more specific ?



silddx -> RE: picado and metronome (Dec. 22 2024 10:38:18)

quote:

quote:

Have you had lessons with a real live tutor yet?


not unfortunately, there are two of them in dublin but one of them doesnt teach and mr walsh didnt respond to my message. i will try to send to him another message.


Do it online. Ricardo should be able to do this for you. If you have a few lessons, you will stop needing to ask questions like this, which is getting you nowhere.

Honestly, you are going to have some serious issues with your technique, practice regime and progress if you fail to get a good solid grounding at the beginning with a proper tutor. Believe me, I learned this the hard way. I was doing a lot of things wrong from watching online videos, even the good ones like Flamenco Explained. You need a good tutor at the beginning to set you on the right path.

I like this chap's approach to learning.




metalhead -> [Deleted] (Dec. 22 2024 11:43:24)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Dec. 22 2024 11:55:54



Stu -> RE: picado and metronome (Dec. 22 2024 21:36:56)

Hey cool video thanks Nigel.
I like that guy.

I like the way he uses the metronome. He just has it running.

And plays on the beat (obvs) but then leaves gaps until he's ready and plays a bit more... then another gap...
I mean I know he's explaining, but he's also discarding any beats where he's prepping the next position then slotting any played notes back into the click when he's ready.

As opposed to trying to play the whole thing slow enough so his prep is still chained to the click and he's not discarding any clicks.
(Which is what I always try and do) maybe naively. His way is a really good way to use metronome i think... or kinda of novel for me...I think



rafapak -> RE: picado and metronome (Dec. 23 2024 14:40:21)

thanks guys for replies



devilhand -> RE: picado and metronome (Dec. 23 2024 19:58:02)

quote:

I like the way he uses the metronome. He just has it running.

Lol. But he's not developing technique with metronome.
He's playing real music with metronome like Ramzi in his Guajira project.



Ricardo -> RE: picado and metronome (Dec. 23 2024 21:39:38)

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

quote:

I like the way he uses the metronome. He just has it running.

Lol. But he's not developing technique with metronome.
He's playing real music with metronome like Ramzi in his Guajira project.


How is it that you can play music without any technique? Pease just stop the nonsense.



Stu -> RE: picado and metronome (Dec. 23 2024 23:22:30)

quote:

He's playing real music with metronome like Ramzi in his Guajira project.


Actually he isn't. Ramzi is playing a piece of music (or falsetas) in full with metronome running at low tempo.

Like I would naturally try to do.

But the guy in the video has the metronome just clicking along and he uses the clicks when he's ready to practice his changes.

Do you notice the difference?

Did you even watch the video?

Do you even know what a metronome is? Do you know what 'technique' is?

Oh never mind. What's the point....



rombsix -> RE: picado and metronome (Dec. 24 2024 2:53:29)

[:D] How did I get dragged into this? [8D]



silddx -> RE: picado and metronome (Dec. 24 2024 13:10:28)

quote:

Lol. But he's not developing technique with metronome.
He's playing real music with metronome like Ramzi in his Guajira project.


What a load of caga :)



silddx -> RE: picado and metronome (Dec. 24 2024 13:24:57)

quote:

How did I get dragged into this?


[:D]



devilhand -> RE: picado and metronome (Dec. 24 2024 14:15:20)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rafapak

quote:

Ok, you have officially lost all good points you won recently. hey-zeus crease toe!!!!! Please NOBODY listen to this horrible statement. Back to basic rhythm dog with you!!! metronome is the ONLY way, because speed is actually rhythm control. end of story good grief.


what do you mean when you say speed is rhythm control ? can you be more specific ?

I guess he means when you play picado you have to able to do rhythmic modulation while crossing strings fast.
Recall rhythm pyramid. One can modulate from 1 2 3 4 into 1&2&3&4& or 1&a2&a3&a4&a etc. In both direction. Bottom-up and top-down. It's not that difficult when you do this on one string. It gets tricky when you have to cross strings during modulation and play fast.



silddx -> RE: picado and metronome (Dec. 24 2024 14:35:38)

quote:

I guess he means when you play picado you have to able to do rhythmic modulation fast while crossing strings.
Recall rhythm pyramid. One can modulate from 1 2 3 4 into 1&2&3&4& or 1&a2&a3&a4&a etc. In both direction. Bottom-up and top-down. It's not that difficult when you do this on one string. It gets tricky when you have to cross strings during modulation and play fast.



Pretty sure you guessed wrong. I infer from what Ricardo is saying that you need perfect physical control and strictly metronomic execution. If you can't do it slow you can't do it fast.



Stu -> RE: picado and metronome (Dec. 24 2024 15:52:32)

quote:

How did I get dragged into this?

[:D][:D]



rafapak -> RE: picado and metronome (Dec. 25 2024 0:22:37)

the problem with picado videos is that they show finished product but they say little about manufacturing process



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