Paper mache’ guitar blind test (Full Version)

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estebanana -> Paper mache’ guitar blind test (Dec. 6 2024 4:47:58)

I came across this video of a blind test event. I couldn’t tell which was which.


https://youtu.be/k0mVqkA67c4?feature=shared



Ricardo -> RE: Paper mache’ guitar blind test (Dec. 6 2024 12:33:05)

I time stamped it. 3rd one maybe? Who knows! [:D]



estebanana -> RE: Paper mache’ guitar blind test (Dec. 6 2024 14:20:51)

I have no idea, I didn’t look at the results yet. I like all three. Supposedly one is an Enrique Garcia and one an modern copy of the Torres papier mache’ and the 3rd is another late 19th early 20th century maker



Erik van Goch -> RE: Paper mache’ guitar blind test (Dec. 6 2024 14:30:10)

Which proves Torres claim it really doesn't matter what you use for the back of the guitar. To prove his point Torres himself build a guitar with a papermache/karton backsite once.



davewphx -> RE: Paper mache’ guitar blind test (Dec. 6 2024 15:23:33)

This is truly incredible. I would have thought that the back and sides added a substantial amount of rigidity to a guitar, and would help keep the thin top from buckling? I wonder if the paper mache guitar has more bracing on the top?



estebanana -> RE: Paper mache’ guitar blind test (Dec. 6 2024 15:28:48)

The artist that plays this guitar had a copy made based on the Torres paper mache’ guitar. The original is housed in perpetuity in a museum. So the artist had a copy made.

It should also be said that when they talk about papier mache’ it’s a hard pressed board material made with paper glue and pressure. It was used in Torres day to make decorative lacquer serving trays, and is quite stiff. It’s not what we necessarily refer to as paper mache’ with wheat paste and torn newspaper, it’s a bit more stiff.



estebanana -> RE: Paper mache’ guitar blind test (Dec. 6 2024 15:32:04)

quote:

ORIGINAL: davewphx

This is truly incredible. I would have thought that the back and sides added a substantial amount of rigidity to a guitar, and would help keep the thin top from buckling? I wonder if the paper mache guitar has more bracing on the top?



The back and sides are a laminated paper board, the top is wood. Torres’ anecdotal theory was that it didn’t matter as much what wood the body is made of, but that the crucial part was the makers skill with wood top and the overall structure.

John Ray could probably say more, but my understanding of the paper mache’ Torres used was more like hardboard like thin Masonite, or something roughly like it..



davewphx -> RE: Paper mache’ guitar blind test (Dec. 6 2024 17:24:13)

Ok, that makes sense. Not as flimsy as I was thinking. Still pretty amazing its usable and so full sounding. Thanks for posting this article.



Ricardo -> RE: Paper mache’ guitar blind test (Dec. 7 2024 18:39:52)

quote:

ORIGINAL: davewphx

Ok, that makes sense. Not as flimsy as I was thinking. Still pretty amazing its usable and so full sounding. Thanks for posting this article.


Like my 1st grade papermache T Rex that crumbled to bits [:D][:D]



davewphx -> RE: Paper mache’ guitar blind test (Dec. 8 2024 0:22:38)

Hah, I made a dog in second grade and was so lazy even then that after it was finished, you could still read the newspaper forming its legs.... my mom still has it!



John Ray -> RE: Paper mache’ guitar blind test (Dec. 8 2024 18:09:28)

Yes, not what we call paper mâché but a smooth and hard board obviously made from wood fibre. Torres probably called it "carton piedra". It didn't feel too different from wood when I examined it. Even so, you can see in the interior picture that it was well re-inforced. Here is a post on my blog with video too.

https://johnguitar.com/a-look-inside-torres-paper-mache-guitar/





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estebanana -> RE: Paper mache’ guitar blind test (Dec. 9 2024 2:36:34)

Here’s more about processes for making artificial board.

The concept that Torres experimented with this material was also to prototype a construction method that could be reproducible - an email came to me via my home email from a lurker 👀 who is a well known person in the biz. They said, where is it in any of the literature that Torres intended this as a demonstration of that idea that only the top matters? We can already do that with blind tests of different kinds of wood. So it’s possible this a foray in materials engineering and not a test of top vs. back & sides.



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estebanana -> RE: Paper mache’ guitar blind test (Dec. 9 2024 2:38:15)

Did it seem more like Masonite or MDF made with pulp? ( mdf - multi directional fiber board)



John Ray -> RE: Paper mache’ guitar blind test (Dec. 9 2024 22:26:02)

Yes, similar to masonite but without that one textured face that it tends to have. He must have made it himself or had someone make it to shape. I can't imagine bending sides made out of something like that.



Fawkes -> RE: Paper mache’ guitar blind test (Dec. 10 2024 18:39:33)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana
They said, where is it in any of the literature that Torres intended this as a demonstration of that idea that only the top matters?


I am glad that got injected here. I remember seeing the point brought up somewhere--the Waldner-Grondona book maybe?

Speaking of Grondona, he played the original, and in context on the CD included with the Waldner-Grondona book, I thought I could hear the difference. Less useful to hear it out of context, but here:

https://www.cumpiano.com/torres-cardboard-guitar
.
.



estebanana -> RE: Paper mache’ guitar blind test (Dec. 11 2024 1:42:06)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fawkes

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana
They said, where is it in any of the literature that Torres intended this as a demonstration of that idea that only the top matters?


I am glad that got injected here. I remember seeing the point brought up somewhere--the Waldner-Grondona book maybe?

Speaking of Grondona, he played the original, and in context on the CD included with the Waldner-Grondona book, I thought I could hear the difference. Less useful to hear it out of context, but here:

https://www.cumpiano.com/torres-cardboard-guitar
.
.



Yeah, made with Brazilian cardboard. I’d be pleased to make guitars that sound like that.



silddx -> RE: Paper mache’ guitar blind test (Dec. 13 2024 15:29:45)

Did we find out which was which? Dunno why, and I have no educated reason to, but thought the first one was the PM.



Fawkes -> RE: Paper mache’ guitar blind test (Jan. 1 2025 22:14:23)

This is a Stefano Grondona CD release from around four years ago, "Temas de Recuerdos". He plays a variety of music on eight historical guitars: six Torres, an Esteso, and his 1927 Santos which is pictured in the recent Santos book (he describes the bracing as six fan bars with two more bars outside of those which are nearly parallel to the soundboard grain). I decided to put it here because without the booklet you have to guess which guitar is which. Extra points if you get the FE numbers.




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