Ricardo -> RE: Real Tocaores drink Zynar (Nov. 5 2024 4:06:35)
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quote:
Can you explicate why this shocked you? well, there are long involved discussions. Steelhead had asserted that the type of compás expression there, (which is also seen in the "seguidilla Sevillana" example of the same collection), did not develop until the 1920s via Niño Ricardo and friends, though he was going off some source that claimed that. Confirmation bias reaffirms this based on the shyte early recordings where fandango (like this) is hardly ever recorded, compared to abandolao style malagueña rhythms in 3, that are different phrasing wise. I showed this example and he admitted he stands corrected. Why? and Why for me it is shocking? Well, this score is exactly like a modern day transcription with, for me, almost Faucher level details there, yet unlike Faucher, no video or tape recording in 1856-1867 (time frame it was "observed"). Kitarist clarified that Ocón was a child prodigy musician since teenager, hence it seems he wrote this down from memory, not understanding necessarily the tradition, but just capturing the notes in a literal manner. This is orders of magnitude a different type of evidence compared to the other "academic" music Castro Buendia painstakingly wades through from this epoch in his 3000 page dissertation. The conclusion seems to be that this evidence is "nothing special" and only shows that flamenco was in a state of "proto-flamenco" vague formation. Meaning, what I am seeing here is not even "real" flamenco. He even went so far to assert the Soledad example first line of verse was similar to a fandango second line, either underhandedly since it hinders his main theme, or carelessly, as said fandango is in the wrong mode to boot (he forgot the key signature maybe?). Where as Ocón evidence has impacted me in a very different way. That verbal descriptions and the score, is basically revealing a practice exactly like what I was doing last week on the gig. It is actually "creepy" to me when I saw this stuff. I mean that up beat accent mark and the freaking double bar line is genius, took me years to get that phrasing clarity and intuition. He got it in ONE SITTING! And no, none of the other academic music scores have this at this time period. And he had purposefully gathered the flamenco stuff in a special section of his collection. Meaning, flamenco is orders of magnitude MUCH OLDER than people, generally, think it is. It is not evolving or something, it is just sitting there fully formed. Unless Ocón was observing a creative event literally that day he saw this stuff (highly improbable this was the vanguard even though he says there "moderna" to distinguish from puntado, or abandolao malagueña stuff, or the old Scarlatti fandango junk). Romerito thinks I am viewing this via the bias of my modern perspective lens, and I am certain 90% of flamencologist would agree with that. Sorry, but that would not creep me out so much. It is more that I am getting a view through Ocons eyes what was REALLY going on vs, Arcas, Glinka, and big etc, it is that his vision was so damn CLEAR, that creeped me out. Tied in with the Planeta account from 20 years even earlier, the whole situation just gave me chills, like we are frozen in time. Like I just ran across a photo of T-REX. Anyway that was like 3 years ago I saw this. It is an issue of subjective interpretation. Since you asked about Marote, I am admitting that I am more into the thing that was going on already in 1850, and I can't even give you the "before and after" thing, cuz I don't yet know. Gaspar Sanz maybe? [:D]
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