We all know the main difference between flamenco and classical guitar sound. Bright versus warm. Does it apply to flamenco tremolo? Do flamencos claw at the string when playing tremolo?
Stu -> RE: Flamenco tremolo sound. Bright or warm? (Oct. 21 2024 8:10:41)
Claw at the string?
What do you mean? what do you really want to know about tremolo?
How your fingertips and tip joint approach the string is crucial to whether you sound flamenco or not. R. Marlow pointed it out in another thread. Del Monte and S. Tenannt also adressed it without making reference to flamenco.
When you claw at the string you get flamenco sound. We talked about flamenco clawing arpegio a few years ago on the foro.
How your fingertips and tip joint approach the string is crucial to whether you sound flamenco or not. R. Marlow pointed it out in another thread. Del Monte and S. Tenannt also adressed it without making reference to flamenco.
When you claw at the string you get flamenco sound. We talked about flamenco clawing arpegio a few years ago on the foro.
Manolo and Gerardo use the same posture as for ami arpegio. They both have examples just rolling ami ami ami with random bass notes tossed in. Paco de Lucía, by contrast changes slightly for trémolo, getting more underneath the string than he does for ami arpegios. I can’t honestly say it sounds much different ie “warmer” because he does this. Maybe it is just habit or psychological that he changes a little. Trémolo is basically a type of arpegio technique where we are hitting one string instead of 3. Gerardo Encuentro furthers the concept with examples where two fingers are hitting an adjacent string rather than all 3 on one.
For sure the clawing at the string, as Tennant demonstrated is NOT promoted at all in classical guitar playing. In flamenco it “rips”, ie, is desirable in most cases as it adds a percussive effect to the cascade of notes. Like the difference between a piano and a harpsichord.
1:43:
This guy uses a different posture with similar results. Perhaps a bit warmer due to the straighter fingers? Certainly not “better”:
For reference:
Stu -> RE: Flamenco tremolo sound. Bright or warm? (Oct. 21 2024 14:47:47)
quote:
When you claw at the string you get flamenco sound.
So there's your answer then.[&:] you seem to know it all already. better sharpen your claws.
but you started by attempting to outline the sound difference between classical guitar and flamenco guitar. Do you have a flamenco guitar yet? or is this old news? maybe you got one?
I'd wager that you can claw all you want on a classical, its not gonna sound v flamenco .
Trémolo is basically a type of arpegio technique where we are hitting one string instead of 3.
This says it all. I claw at the string during arpegio. My observation is the closer your palm to the string the more you claw, or else you'll end up with apoyando. For tremolo it's hard to keep the same hand position. I have to lower my hand a bit like Paco. Otherwise my thumb cant reach 2nd string sometimes even the 3rd string.
Do you guys change your hand position in tremolo when your thumb plays 2nd string?
quote:
Do you have a flamenco guitar yet? or is this old news? maybe you got one?
I still have to outgrow my guitar. It's a flamenco sounding cedar top classical guitar with perfect setup for both hands. 5-6mm at the bridge. 3mm at the 12th fret. Actually it's a flamenco guitar.
Do you guys change your hand position in tremolo when your thumb plays 2nd string?
no, but likely don't use apoyando on that string. I have a passage in my method book "formative works", soleá trémolo, that focuses on this issue where both thumb and fingers have to hit the same string (second string). The trick is to first learn this using the rhythmic gap AFTER the previous thumb stroke. That is how it is notated, with the intention of eventually closing the gap rhythmically (making a 5-tuplet) as you advance.
see here....you will like it as it sounds "arabic" LOL:
They absolutely understand the difference, and deliberately want to avoid that sound most of the time. Just look at thumb passages alone. They are deliberately avoiding things that flamenco players desire sound wise.
How do you play tremolo on lower strings without hitting the string below?
This video was for the novice, but I clearly show the 2nd string melody notes F to E resolution at 0:47. But to be totally honest, most flamenco players don't mind hitting adjacent strings when playing very aggressively, hence the left hand voicing is super important. Even Paco puts a little strum of the full chord into his tremolos after pauses.
Good for you that you have advanced beyond novice. Now you need a flamenco guitar. [:D]
Richard Jernigan -> RE: Flamenco tremolo sound. Bright or warm? (Dec. 22 2025 1:44:31)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stu
quote:
When you claw at the string you get flamenco sound.
I'd wager that you can claw all you want on a classical, its not gonna sound v flamenco .
Spruce/Indian Romanillos #407 responds quite well to flamenco technique, though it is definitely set up for classical. It's serviceable on rasgueados, but not quite as percussive as my '82 Arcangel Fernandez blanca. But the Arcangel is unmanageable on classical.
My Blackshear spruce/indian "Reyes" model (as far as I know, the last instrument he built) is quite serviceable for both classical and flamenco, though not as good at classical as my spruce/Brasilian Abel Garcia, nor as good at flamenco as my '67 Ramirez blanca. Its setup is low even for flamenco, but with the Labella EJ-46s Tom specified it doesn't buzz on classical.
Mario Escudero made a flamenco LP on a Hauser. He said, "There are not flamenco and classical guitars, just good guitars and bad guitars."
However, in support of Stu I will say that of all the guitars I have grown familiar with over the years, the Blackshear "Reyes" is the only one on which I have felt comfortable playing both classical and flamenco.
I don't think I would have learned flamenco technique if the Ramirex hadn't been my only world class guitar for decades.
Mario Escudero made a flamenco LP on a Hauser. He said, "There are not flamenco and classical guitars, just good guitars and bad guitars."
I was so fortunate to find that old vinyl in Spain in 2022. I love his playing here, he avoids the glopes as much as possible, it still sounds great. It inspired me to attempt more than just guajiras on my dad's guitar. Maybe I will make a video someday.
Imo in these type of discussions we're sometimes ignoring the totally different hand shapes of the players, length of fingers, relation of thumb length to length of rest of fingers, etc. plus also length of finger nails. All these play quite a role in how different people approach flamenco techniques and how they all try to achieve the same good percussive sound but with different looking shapes and biomechanics. I can't imagine Javier Conde or Grisha play like Gerardo. When learning from videos, it could even be beneficial to choose one of the good Maestros who has an almost similar hand shape like oneself for copying technique imo.
This was David Russel zoom masterclass on tremolo during the pandemic. Normally would not care about classical approach to this subject, but he has some interesting insights (for example muting the open E with left hand when he does tremolo on the B string). For whatever reason Regondi was off my radar and I realize by his dates he was likely influential even if indirectly on flamenco tremolo (or vice versa as Muricano had rudimentary tremolo and was 27 years OLDER), as his music seems to use it more than I would have thought. In our Archives here Richard Jernigan mentioned about how Regondi, as virtuoso technical playing was not done much until recent times. So Russel uses those at the start to demonstrate the scope of the technique. And around 36:09 he discusses his personal use of the slower tempo flamenco tremolo of 5 notes, and mixing it in certain cases with the 4 as the tempo fluctuates. He shows the piece composed for him at 57:30 that uses the 5 note often (it has Rondeña vibes). At 1:19:30 a discussion of the Tauromagia tremolo which leads to a demo of Fuente y Caudal. Surprising at 1:40:42, Dowland Lute tremolo of the Renaissance...surprised they did not use it in Spain as it makes a lot of sense to sustain a melodic voice.
