RE: Which is your favorite groovy bulerias ? (Full Version)

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sol512 -> RE: Which is your favorite groovy bulerias ? (Feb. 2 2025 5:22:37)

quote:

ORIGINAL: metalhead
Will this work? Do you want me to play it? starting at 4:07

https://youtu.be/izlCQL_XmG4?si=oV23xPAQB6CNwjja&t=247


So did you post the video of you playing it "with groove"??

I checked this thread twice and don't see any video of you playing anything .... [8|]



metalhead -> RE: Which is your favorite groovy bulerias ? (Feb. 2 2025 10:35:44)

I had exams back then so I forgot about it, but I have posted a different bulerias in a different post



Stu -> RE: Which is your favorite groovy bulerias ? (Feb. 2 2025 10:45:54)

yeah to be fair hes posted a couple of vids!
but would be a good challemge for you to do next metalhead!!!

id like to do too, but never have the time. cant really record when the kids are around and if they are sleeping its too noisy or im too tired!

although i keep seeing ricardos video with the kids running wild



devilhand -> RE: Which is your favorite groovy bulerias ? (May 4 2026 21:39:09)




Ricardo -> RE: Which is your favorite groovy bulerias ? (May 5 2026 12:00:57)

quote:

although i keep seeing ricardos video with the kids running wild


The young lady is now a happening rock band leader/bass player/guitar player/lead singer.






metalhead -> RE: Which is your favorite groovy bulerias ? (May 5 2026 16:24:08)

it's good that you posted this because I had been revisiting my bulerias repertoire and trying to analyze the falsetas and coincidentally your falseta was one of them.

I'd learnt the very first falseta from your first video months ago (the one with kids running). Great falseta btw, I almost always use it when opening my bulerias.

Now coming to what I tried to analyze, is it also an example of 'tonality' going on in flamenco? The 3 jazz chords you use at from 0:04 up until come the Bb major at 0:09 seem to be a progression from Am - Gm - F major.

Are you going briefly going to E prhyg? (since that's a progression we often use there) And then the Bb is your entry point to por medio once again?

Kind of similar to how in that falseta by paco, he played a progression from D phrygian and landed back to por medio; I was wondering if the underlying concept in your falseta and that falseta by PDL is the same.

But one thing to note is you are using Gm instead of Gmaj, so I am not entirely sure if my assumption that you're going to E phrygian is correct. If it's not E phrg, then what is it?

If you do not understand what I mean then I can once again record a video to articulate better.



metalhead -> [Deleted] (May 5 2026 22:03:19)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at May 6 2026 10:52:01



Ricardo -> RE: Which is your favorite groovy bulerias ? (May 6 2026 12:04:40)

quote:

Are you going briefly going to E prhyg? (since that's a progression we often use there) And then the Bb is your entry point to por medio once again?


No. The thing is por medio and por arriba are the same notes minus ONE alteration, the B natural or B flat. That is why the circle of keys is important to know via 5ths relations because it makes these types of overlapping musical nuanced ideas crystal clear.

The opening chord already established the A Phrygian sound via the bass note and the picado cross trill (see recent thread on cross trills that Devilhand thought "never is used") between C# and Bb. See full falseta here:



The chord position Paco uses often ever since his duet with Al dimeola called "passion grace and fire", which we could say was my inspiration for the opening arpegio.

When moving the pattern down the neck the diatonic scale is used. Em7b5 to Am7 is actually the natural "tonic" v-i of phrygian, however, with C in the bass it projects as a C chord with the added 6th degree up top. The notes are C A E A and open E in the pattern, however the A shifts to G giving either the minor 7th above A or the 5th above C bass. In that moment the concept of Am7/C or C6 is arbitrary (they are the same) then the same deal for the G MINOR 7th add 13. That chord is actually the "cadential" vii6 (Em7b5/Bb or the v chord again) chord in Phrygian mode that could resolve back to A major next if you wanted. But I continue on down to F major 7. Again that chord is the relative major "cambio" then I finally resolve to Bb which is the cadential "II" that has historically replaced the old Gm/Bb as a cadential "option".

Notice how at no point in the sequence is the note B natural EVER introduced. That means on the circle of 5ths we have stayed secure in ONE tonality and never moved anywhere. The B natural introduces an accidental against the normal order of notes or the "key signature" changes necessarily via that specific note. The other direction would be Eb on the wheel. I use neither. In your other earlier example Paco's use of Eb is specific as I described it as a brief modulation or "tonicization" of Gm, and later the Bb chords of por medio.

Here is a 5ths relation in flamenco guitar keys:
Por abajo=Bb and Eb the rest are natural.
Eb-E
Por medio=Bb the rest natural.
Bb-B
Por arriba= all naturals.
F-F#
Por granaina=F# and the naturals.

Please note the relation of either Eb-Bb-F or E-B-F# are 5ths.

Shifting to adjecent tonalities is easy as the ONE NOTE alteration is the target, and is precisely what the cante does to invoke these changes as signals to the guitarist. From there maybe you could figure out the rest of the tonalities and complete the wheel on your own.



metalhead -> RE: Which is your favorite groovy bulerias ? (May 7 2026 12:38:44)

quote:

The chord position Paco uses often ever since his duet with Al dimeola called "passion grace and fire", which we could say was my inspiration for the opening arpegio.


I was able to hear your falseta immediately.

Any theory concepts you encourage knowing that can help with understanding these kinds of stuff better? I have heard that flamenco defies western theory but I was wondering if there are still some concepts to know that can make one better at analyzing falsetas. I try to do it, but I don't go far.



Ricardo -> RE: Which is your favorite groovy bulerias ? (May 8 2026 16:21:24)

quote:

ORIGINAL: metalhead

quote:

The chord position Paco uses often ever since his duet with Al dimeola called "passion grace and fire", which we could say was my inspiration for the opening arpegio.


I was able to hear your falseta immediately.

Any theory concepts you encourage knowing that can help with understanding these kinds of stuff better? I have heard that flamenco defies western theory but I was wondering if there are still some concepts to know that can make one better at analyzing falsetas. I try to do it, but I don't go far.


Flamenco absolutely does not "defy western theory". The reason people claim that is two big misunderstandings.

1. superficial perceived Eastern influences (Orientalism)

2. the common practice Era of western classical music begins at a time when the modes collapse down into two keys, major and minor. Relics of the old modal system therefore seem to "defy" the rules of the common practice era, but are still "western music theory" by their very nature.

Even though I presently recognize the older modal system of 16th century flemish polyphonic music at work in our modern day flamenco formal structures, I still feel the best starting place to understanding music theory in general to be the circle of 5ths and what it represents. From there connecting or translating to modes and such is easier to see on your instrument.

Learning the traditional flamenco method bypasses any need for that study (just copy the maestros and build an intuition), however, even Paco de Lucia was left scratching his head about how to relate his understanding to what Mclaughlin and other musicians were doing. Also an inferiority complex about reading notes was always a problem for flamenco players.

Ironically I see that western music theory people also don't communicate well with each other if they come from either the Renaissance polyphonic school or the common practice era post modal collapse. The languages are just different.



metalhead -> RE: Which is your favorite groovy bulerias ? (May 9 2026 13:24:33)

quote:

I still feel the best starting place to understanding music theory in general to be the circle of 5ths and what it represents.


Interesting, I will try studying that.

quote:

Learning the traditional flamenco method bypasses any need for that study (just copy the maestros and build an intuition)


What type of intuition? Is it relying on your ears and see what feels right?



Ricardo -> RE: Which is your favorite groovy bulerias ? (May 9 2026 14:31:01)

quote:

What type of intuition? Is it relying on your ears and see what feels right?


yes, you copy the masters that did things "right" and assuming you are not only copying one individual artist you will notice there are different ways to achieve the good results. PDL in particular taught us the limits of the evolution of single forms (trace one form through his career as accompaniment and solo from the late 1960s until his final concerts). In other words how you might change the traditional things with new ideas without going off the rails. In doing so your intuition starts driving your own creations or explorations or arrangements of material you have learned from maestros.

to relate it to music theory in general, here is the circle enhanced with flamenco keys:
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=332688&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=flamenco%2Ckeys&tmode=&smode=&s=#332869



metalhead -> RE: Which is your favorite groovy bulerias ? (May 13 2026 11:00:52)

thanks for the link and the help. Will be going through it.



Stu -> RE: Which is your favorite groovy bulerias ? (May 14 2026 11:25:12)

I Know form this thread that you may have meant something different than "groove" but this is a good groove for me.

keep coming back to it. mainly for one falseta 1:25




metalhead -> RE: Which is your favorite groovy bulerias ? (May 25 2026 14:10:12)

nice bulerias, thanks for sharing. Of course, my opinions have largely changed since this thread. I find it absolutely crazy once upon a time I critiqued Vicente's playing!



Stu -> RE: Which is your favorite groovy bulerias ? (May 25 2026 22:51:49)

[:D] well credit to you for realising that and having the humility to say so!



devilhand -> RE: Which is your favorite groovy bulerias ? (May 26 2026 9:09:24)

Gotta love it. It's Alborea. But grooving like Buleria.




Stu -> RE: Which is your favorite groovy bulerias ? (May 26 2026 10:08:07)

Kurt Russell in the thumbnail!!??[:D]

I may love it in its own right but

this doesnt groove like 'bulerias' for me at all. It has the slow swing/pulse of fast soleas/solea por bulerias....not enough tempo to groove...



Ricardo -> RE: Which is your favorite groovy bulerias ? (May 26 2026 12:02:23)

quote:

Gotta love it. It's Alborea. But grooving like Buleria.


sure. The age old compás of Soleá. [8|]



devilhand -> RE: Which is your favorite groovy bulerias ? (May 27 2026 14:45:21)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

Gotta love it. It's Alborea. But grooving like Buleria.


sure. The age old compás of Soleá. [8|]

Ok. They said it was Caña. Now it's Alborea. What's the deal?



Ricardo -> RE: Which is your favorite groovy bulerias ? (May 28 2026 11:38:54)

What is the deal? The melody tells you what the song form is, but by now you should know the difference between soleá and bulerías as compás expressions on guitar, regardless of the cante melody.



Stu -> RE: Which is your favorite groovy bulerias ? (May 28 2026 12:18:00)

quote:

They said it was Caña. Now it's Alborea. What's the deal?


Who said that? and what is 'it'? Your video?



devilhand -> RE: Which is your favorite groovy bulerias ? (May 28 2026 17:57:52)

quote:

Who said that? and what is 'it'? Your video?

I'm not referring to the video. Foro and google say that Polo, Caña, Alborea and Solea share the same compas. Is the difference in harmony or melody small? Which one is older. Is Solea really the mother of all palos?



Ricardo -> RE: Which is your favorite groovy bulerias ? (May 29 2026 11:43:11)

quote:

Is the difference in harmony or melody small? Which one is older. Is Solea really the mother of all palos?


The difference is in the melody which is set. The harmony goes with that and is similar but not the same. Hence you wind up with different formal structures of these songs based on the melody as the prime driver (cantus firmus). They are typically the same mode (Phrygian, aka tono 3 or 4 of the Renaissance). The lyrics fit to the melody (you can add Romances to the list you gave and the difference there is the verses tell a continual story where as in the others they are stand alone) and often interchangeable mathematically (octosyllabic verses more or less).

Soleá is likely the mother as it is the biggest or with the most variants of the group. The word association comes later, however discovering recently the Juan Talega classic lyric in the 1799 set of "polo" letras of Don Precisio, I am certain the Soleá operated under a different working title early on. Likely a specific type of "Romance" that branched off from the others due to the stand alone verses issue. I now consider all those others to be just specific variants of the main Soleá form, retaining elements in common like compás and mode, phrasing etc.

Although the other main song forms, Fandango/Cante Levante, Siguiriyas, etc., might have influences from the Soleá, they appear to have specific and different origins, however all are likely part of a special repertoire of songs from around the same time period (a subset of the Flemish motet style songs).



devilhand -> RE: Which is your favorite groovy bulerias ? (May 30 2026 13:17:01)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

Is the difference in harmony or melody small? Which one is older. Is Solea really the mother of all palos?


The difference is in the melody which is set. The harmony goes with that and is similar but not the same. Hence you wind up with different formal structures of these songs based on the melody as the prime driver (cantus firmus). They are typically the same mode (Phrygian, aka tono 3 or 4 of the Renaissance). The lyrics fit to the melody (you can add Romances to the list you gave and the difference there is the versus tell a continual story where as in the others they are stand alone) and often interchangeable mathematically (octosyllabic versus more or less).

Soleá is likely the mother as it is the biggest or with the most variants of the group. The word association comes later, however discovering recently the Juan Talega classic lyric in the 1799 set of "polo" letras of Don Precisio, I am certain the Soleá operated under a different working title early on. Likely a specific type of "Romance" that branched off from the others due to the stand alone verses issue. I now consider all those others to be just specific variants of the main Soleá form, retaining elements in common like compás and mode, phrasing etc.

Although the other main song forms, Fandango/Cante Levante, Siguiriyas, etc., might have influences from the Soleá, they appear to have specific and different origins, however all are likely part of a special repertoire of songs from around the same time period (a subset of the Flemish motet style songs).

Thumbs up for this nice overview.



devilhand -> RE: Which is your favorite groovy bulerias ? (May 30 2026 16:49:29)

quote:

Kurt Russell in the thumbnail!!??

It can't be him. He seems to have a strong aversion to guitar and singing.




Stu -> RE: Which is your favorite groovy bulerias ? (May 31 2026 11:45:53)

[:D] HAHA..."Music times over!!" mustve been great fun filming that scene!

I might employ some of that schtick over on your 'goals' thread

"Gimme that youtube link Devilhand! CRAAAASH...music times over!"



Ricardo -> RE: Which is your favorite groovy bulerias ? (May 31 2026 15:44:22)

quote:

mustve been great fun filming that scene!


On the contrary, it was a famous story where the stage prop was supposed to be used upon change of camera angle, but Russel confused the real 19th century guitar she played as the prop guitar and destroyed a valuable historic piece inadvertently.



Stu -> RE: Which is your favorite groovy bulerias ? (Jun. 1 2026 0:28:53)

[:D] oh no really?? Jesus Christ... embarrassing moistened. [:(]



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