Where do you draw the line at sounding ‘clean enough’ (Full Version)

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trivium91 -> Where do you draw the line at sounding ‘clean enough’ (Aug. 21 2024 16:03:21)

i have a friend who is a really amazing classical player, though he has some knowledge of flamenco it’s based from books. He critiques my playing in saying that my legatos are not clean enough for example, or that my rasguedos are not crisp enough, or that they are lazy sounding. He recommends going back to slow practice for some of these falsettas, though it sounds good enough by my ears, since im putting more focus on getting it up speed and locking in the rythym. Sure it could technically sound better, but where do you draw the line? My friend even critiques some of the more modern flamenco greats, where their intonation with their fretting hand is off or they sound too buzzy. When i hear him play sample some flamenco techniques he sounds too clear and crisp to my ears, to perfect almost and it just sounds off and not authentic for some reason though i can’t pin point why. Perhaps im crazy and im just hearing things, who knows. Regardless, where do you draw the line when a falsettas is good enough before you start to bring it up yo speed? i mean you can always improve the way it sounds but it just seems like to play it up to speed some sacrifices in tone, intonation and missing a note here and there is going to happen regardless of how much slow practice this falsetta received. Am i wrong in my thinking? Moreover, I just feel that but trying so hard on mastering the notes per-say just takes away from the emotional expression of the music.



Morante -> RE: Where do you draw the line at sounding ‘clean enough’ (Aug. 21 2024 16:39:08)

Ask your cantaor.



Norman Paul Kliman -> RE: Where do you draw the line at sounding ‘clean enough’ (Aug. 21 2024 16:44:22)

quote:

My friend even critiques some of the more modern flamenco greats, where their intonation with their fretting hand is off or they sound too buzzy.


This makes me think he's a jerk and you shouldn't pay attention to his opinions. Who has he criticized?

Your playing will probably improve as you continue, so just do the best you can for now and don't worry about it.

In my experience, there have always been jerks like that, especially among classical guitarists, who say things like that. It makes them feel better about themselves.

Your playing should be as clean as possible, so just keep practicing, do your best and don't listen to your friend. Of course, I haven't heard your playing, so if you've uploaded a link to this forum, tell me about it and I'll have a listen.



Mark2 -> RE: Where do you draw the line at sounding ‘clean enough’ (Aug. 21 2024 16:52:56)

Record yourself and then you'll have a better picture. We can fool ourselves into thinking it's good enough but a recording doesn't lie.

I'm working on a falseta now and it's pretty fast, but the player on the recording is very very clean. Professionals usually are. It takes a lot of discipline and patience to practice until something is basically flawless once you already know it "good enough"

I was taking a lesson wih a guy from Madrid and he had me playing an exercise and I kept making mistakes. He had me go slower and I still made some mistakes. Finally, frustrated he yelled "Concentrate! This is an exercise!!" Sometimes that is the answer.

As far as expression, the better you know something, the more ability you'll have to express emotion IMO. When you consider artists that have hit records and have to perform them hundreds of times and they still sound good, they've worked on the craft.

My first flamenco teacher said the challenge is to be the cleanest, not the fastest.

As far as your friend, it's difficult to take advice from someone who hasn't figured out how to make the sound, but you can always learn something from a good musician.



trivium91 -> RE: Where do you draw the line at sounding ‘clean enough’ (Aug. 21 2024 16:55:47)

Yeah he’s not trying to be a jerk, just his opinion, he is a very clean classical player though and plays professionally where i just play for a hobby. I would say my playing is as clean as possible, though it would be cleaner if i went slower of course but than it also takes away from the rythym and feel of the piece. It’s certainly not unacceptable by any means, and if I recall Vicente amigo was accused of being too brash in his playing. Obviously im not comparing myself to Vicente amigo by any means, just highlighting some of the criticism some of the greats received.



trivium91 -> RE: Where do you draw the line at sounding ‘clean enough’ (Aug. 21 2024 16:59:16)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark2

Record yourself and then you'll have a better picture. We can fool ourselves into thinking it's good enough but a recording doesn't lie.

I'm working on a falseta now and it's pretty fast, but the player on the recording is very very clean. Professionals usually are. It takes a lot of discipline and patience to practice until something is basically flawless once you already know it "good enough"

I was taking a lesson wih a guy from Madrid and he had me playing an exercise and I kept making mistakes. He had me go slower and I still made some mistakes. Finally, frustrated he yelled "Concentrate! This is an exercise!!" Sometimes that is the answer.

As far as expression, the better you know something, the more ability you'll have to express emotion IMO. When you consider artists that have hit records and have to perform them hundreds of times and they still sound good, they've worked on the craft.

My first flamenco teacher said the challenge is to be the cleanest, not the fastest.

As far as your friend, it's difficult to take advicce from someone who hasn't figured out how to make the sound, but you can always learn something from a good musician.


This makes sense, so when do you know to speed up? I mean at some point you get bored and want to bing the piece up to speed, it’s inevitable that you will miss a note here and there, or buzz a fret because you didn’t press close enough to the fret. Why did you stop taking lessons from your first flamenco teacher?



Mark2 -> RE: Where do you draw the line at sounding ‘clean enough’ (Aug. 21 2024 17:21:43)

I go back and forth. I've been using an app that lets you set the tempo of a recording and I'll play along slowly until I have it and gradually speed it up. If I run into a trouble spot I'll slow it back down until I figure it out. In many cases, I never get it to tempo before I move on to something else because my technique isn't good enough.

I studied with my first teacher for five years and he told me he taught me everything he knew, which wasn't really the case. He had given me a lot of performance opportunities and maybe he just wanted to push me out of the nest. I did learn all his solos, but I'll never be as good a player as he was.

Recently I worked on an exercise that had a tricky accent on 2& and 8& por bulerias. The recording had Juan Ramirez dancing, and the tempo was very fast. I managed it, but I really didn't think it felt good. So I recorded it again at 75% of the tempo and it felt much better. I asked Tino about it and he said sonikette is created not only by rythmic accuracy, but by sound. He said I did hit it correctly at the faster tempo, but since my sound was better at the slower tempo, it came off way better.


quote:

ORIGINAL: trivium91

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark2

Record yourself and then you'll have a better picture. We can fool ourselves into thinking it's good enough but a recording doesn't lie.

I'm working on a falseta now and it's pretty fast, but the player on the recording is very very clean. Professionals usually are. It takes a lot of discipline and patience to practice until something is basically flawless once you already know it "good enough"

I was taking a lesson wih a guy from Madrid and he had me playing an exercise and I kept making mistakes. He had me go slower and I still made some mistakes. Finally, frustrated he yelled "Concentrate! This is an exercise!!" Sometimes that is the answer.

As far as expression, the better you know something, the more ability you'll have to express emotion IMO. When you consider artists that have hit records and have to perform them hundreds of times and they still sound good, they've worked on the craft.

My first flamenco teacher said the challenge is to be the cleanest, not the fastest.

As far as your friend, it's difficult to take advicce from someone who hasn't figured out how to make the sound, but you can always learn something from a good musician.


This makes sense, so when do you know to speed up? I mean at some point you get bored and want to bing the piece up to speed, it’s inevitable that you will miss a note here and there, or buzz a fret because you didn’t press close enough to the fret. Why did you stop taking lessons from your first flamenco teacher?



silddx -> RE: Where do you draw the line at sounding ‘clean enough’ (Aug. 21 2024 17:36:32)

I like that quote in the book 'The Flamencos of Cadiz Bay' where it's said that every note rang as clear as a church bell. I try to aim for that, but never get anywhere near.



trivium91 -> RE: Where do you draw the line at sounding ‘clean enough’ (Aug. 21 2024 17:52:35)

quote:

ORIGINAL: silddx

I like that quote in the book 'The Flamencos of Cadiz Bay' where it's said that every note rang as clear as a church bell. I try to aim for that, but never get anywhere near.


That's fair, I can relate to that. That being said though what do you do? I mean the goal is to make a it as clean as possible but I still feel like something has to give somewhere when you bring it up to speed. Other than playing slowly what do you do? I mean sure do it slow when you learn something and gradually speed up, but many of the rhythms don't sound right below 100BPM. Eventually one brings it up speed to make those rhythms pop, but of course it will sound more 'clear' at a slower tempo.



trivium91 -> RE: Where do you draw the line at sounding ‘clean enough’ (Aug. 21 2024 18:34:06)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark2

I go back and forth. I've been using an app that lets you set the tempo of a recording and I'll play along slowly until I have it and gradually speed it up. If I run into a trouble spot I'll slow it back down until I figure it out. In many cases, I never get it to tempo before I move on to something else because my technique isn't good enough.

I studied with my first teacher for five years and he told me he taught me everything he knew, which wasn't really the case. He had given me a lot of performance opportunities and maybe he just wanted to push me out of the nest. I did learn all his solos, but I'll never be as good a player as he was.

Recently I worked on an exercise that had a tricky accent on 2& and 8& por bulerias. The recording had Juan Ramirez dancing, and the tempo was very fast. I managed it, but I really didn't think it felt good. So I recorded it again at 75% of the tempo and it felt much better. I asked Tino about it and he said sonikette is created not only by rythmic accuracy, but by sound. He said I did hit it correctly at the faster tempo, but since my sound was better at the slower tempo, it came off way better.


quote:

ORIGINAL: trivium91

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark2

Record yourself and then you'll have a better picture. We can fool ourselves into thinking it's good enough but a recording doesn't lie.

I'm working on a falseta now and it's pretty fast, but the player on the recording is very very clean. Professionals usually are. It takes a lot of discipline and patience to practice until something is basically flawless once you already know it "good enough"

I was taking a lesson wih a guy from Madrid and he had me playing an exercise and I kept making mistakes. He had me go slower and I still made some mistakes. Finally, frustrated he yelled "Concentrate! This is an exercise!!" Sometimes that is the answer.

As far as expression, the better you know something, the more ability you'll have to express emotion IMO. When you consider artists that have hit records and have to perform them hundreds of times and they still sound good, they've worked on the craft.

My first flamenco teacher said the challenge is to be the cleanest, not the fastest.

As far as your friend, it's difficult to take advicce from someone who hasn't figured out how to make the sound, but you can always learn something from a good musician.


This makes sense, so when do you know to speed up? I mean at some point you get bored and want to bing the piece up to speed, it’s inevitable that you will miss a note here and there, or buzz a fret because you didn’t press close enough to the fret. Why did you stop taking lessons from your first flamenco teacher?



It’s funny because i looked into many of the great like Sabicas, Vicente, Tomatito and many others, they were pretty much all criticized for prioritizing rythym and emotion over technical perfection. The only one that was not criticized it seems like was Paco De Lucia. Regardless, it seems to be a common criticism of flamenco players, which is if played slower it can be cleaner. When speed increases some of that clarity is lost, i guess it’s about striking that balance to where its good enough.



silddx -> RE: Where do you draw the line at sounding ‘clean enough’ (Aug. 21 2024 19:36:59)

quote:

That's fair, I can relate to that. That being said though what do you do? I mean the goal is to make a it as clean as possible but I still feel like something has to give somewhere when you bring it up to speed. Other than playing slowly what do you do?


I trust the feeling I'm getting, and the wonderful education and encouragement I get on here whenever I post a video. I listen to a fair amount of flamenco and try to instil the vibrations I get from it. For me it's a process of going slower to get faster, like low heart rate aerobic running. I pay a lot of attention to the practice techniques Ramon Ruiz instilled in me, and a book he recommended. As long as I feel I'm improving I am happy enough, but every day takes at least half an hour to an hour for me to play more cleanly and powerfully. But I've only been learning properly for about 2.5 years.



trivium91 -> RE: Where do you draw the line at sounding ‘clean enough’ (Aug. 21 2024 20:03:36)

quote:

ORIGINAL: silddx

quote:

That's fair, I can relate to that. That being said though what do you do? I mean the goal is to make a it as clean as possible but I still feel like something has to give somewhere when you bring it up to speed. Other than playing slowly what do you do?


I trust the feeling I'm getting, and the wonderful education and encouragement I get on here whenever I post a video. I listen to a fair amount of flamenco and try to instil the vibrations I get from it. For me it's a process of going slower to get faster, like low heart rate aerobic running. I pay a lot of attention to the practice techniques Ramon Ruiz instilled in me, and a book he recommended. As long as I feel I'm improving I am happy enough, but every day takes at least half an hour to an hour for me to play more cleanly and powerfully. But I've only been learning properly for about 2.5 years.


thats fair, I takes me a while to warm up aswell, I think thats normal even for the greats. The greats spend a lot of time warming up before, they also start with easier stuff and transition to harder stuff later in the concert. I think one challenge with a teacher is not giving you at least 10 minutes to warm up before you try and show them what you have been working on. I had a classical teacher in the past, that I just couldn't ever play my best in front of them. They were very critical and in turn it just made me really nervous and choke. On top of that we jumped right into every lesson without a warmup.



xirdneH_imiJ -> RE: Where do you draw the line at sounding ‘clean enough’ (Aug. 21 2024 21:32:53)

Interesting topic. In general classical guitarists, no matter how good they are, have no clue how good flamenco is played. Sure, they know about the techniques involved, but their execution is usually nothing like it's supposed to be. Nothing wrong with that, the guitars are different, the setup, their technique, the way the guitar is held, their attitude towards rhythm.

He's not wrong though that you should endeavour to be as clean as possible. Classical guitarists tend to sacrifice rhythm to achieve their desired tone, which sounds horrible to my ears, but there you go. In our case, surely we raise an eyebrow if something is not clean enough or buzzes, but much more emphasis is placed on being rhythmically precise. Classical guitarists don't improvise and flamenco is all about that. Sure, you have prepared material, falsetas, but you can always play them in a different way, connecting them rhythmically in very different ways, playing around with your dynamics. Flamenco has BALLS, and classical guitar sometimes does not.

That said, there are very few guitarists who can do justice in both genres, and it's not a coincidence that since Paco's performance, Concierto Aranjuez is most often performed by flamenco guitarists.

Recording yourself is the best thing you can do, in whatever speed, it can only help you. It will be sometimes very painful, but you can learn a lot for sure. Slow practice and building up the speed is great, if you have the patience for it :) I never did, but learned the most during dance classes where you're sometimes forced to slow down and play the same thing over and over again.

So, to sum it up, it's a good idea to listen to expert advice, but ultimately you should be your own worst critic - and it's also wise to consult a teacher who knows how to play. Fun fact: I once played for an audience of about 50 classical guitarists and to my great surprise it was a huge success, despite me being a mediocre flamenco guitarist :D Most guitarists appreciate the balls in flamenco, and the special and unique moments it can create.



Manitas de Lata -> RE: Where do you draw the line at sounding ‘clean enough’ (Aug. 21 2024 21:44:05)

real Gipsy isnt perfect and its normally muddy , lot of crap guitars , wear off strings , huge faty fingers , you name it..
its like comparing F1 to Rally

he must think of flamenco like Pepe Romero style and other old folks that had some classical style into flamenco.
Modern players not clean? flamenco its cleaner than ever..... even generaly speaking, and im not talkin the Flamenco monsters like Antonio , Vicente etc

Its a nice argument to push you to improve like "thats not my tempo"
Old Segovia argument is done a long time ago.

If he doesnt play the style how the hell?



trivium91 -> RE: Where do you draw the line at sounding ‘clean enough’ (Aug. 21 2024 22:10:47)

My understanding os
quote:

ORIGINAL: Manitas de Lata

real Gipsy isnt perfect and its normally muddy , lot of crap guitars , wear off strings , huge faty fingers , you name it..
its like comparing F1 to Rally

he must think of flamenco like Pepe Romero style and other old folks that had some classical style into flamenco.
Modern players not clean? flamenco its cleaner than ever..... even generaly speaking, and im not talkin the Flamenco monsters like Antonio , Vicente etc

Its a nice argument to push you to improve like "thats not my tempo"
Old Segovia argument is done a long time ago.

If he doesnt play the style how the hell?


My understanding is that some classical guitar players dabble in a bit of flamenco as my friend does, but they don't live and breathe it like most flamenco players do. When I hear some of the techniques like rasguedos, it sounds robotic since it's so precise, I can't really find how else to describe that it sounds off or digital. Of Course he doesnt listen to a lot of flamenco like I do, so he might not know what something should sound like.



Manitas de Lata -> RE: Where do you draw the line at sounding ‘clean enough’ (Aug. 21 2024 22:26:52)

if you want someone to analyse your flamenco, you should seek a flamenco opinion.

Just for curiosity , show him Javier Conde and tell what did he told you of him.



trivium91 -> RE: Where do you draw the line at sounding ‘clean enough’ (Aug. 21 2024 23:35:49)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Manitas de Lata

if you want someone to analyse your flamenco, you should seek a flamenco opinion.

Just for curiosity , show him Javier Conde and tell what did he told you of him.


Ha yeah thats true. well i've studies what some of the well known players do and i can tell you that they do tap the string when doing a fast passage of sextuplet legatos for example, of course its not all the time but deliberate when you are just trying to throw a note in there sometimes with the pinky. Not every legato or pull off has to be deliberate, pulling and releasing the string where your finger ends up just above the second string. Sure it might not sound as full or have the same amount of weight. This is flamenco after all and timing is important.



Ricardo -> RE: Where do you draw the line at sounding ‘clean enough’ (Aug. 22 2024 14:30:26)

there is a thought in classical pedagogy in general, that these historical notes that were scribed are “important” so much so that within a phrase, a missed note is a violent corruption and disrespect to history. The massive huge irony is that, 99.999999% of the performances break the narrative provided by the rhythm. In particular music that is not easy such as JS Bach I see this phenomena. We end up with very good versions that retain that narrative such as by Glenn Gould on Piano. Because the rhythm aspect is so much harder to maintain (due to said pedagogy that emphasizes the note over the timing of it), he got criticized for being “a machine” lacking substance or “feeling”. The same can be said for John Williams (guitar). This is an objective fact that the rhythmically more advanced or concerned players in the classical genre, all the time receive the same type of criticism.

Ironically the singular eyewitness account of JS Bach STOMPING HIS FOOT VIOLENTLY ON THE FLOOR WHILE CONDUCTING a church group, brings to light the likely reality that Bach would have been horrified by those 99.99999% of loose timed “perfect” note performances. From my personal perspective, where I deeply acknowledge the challenge of good and precise rhythm expression, I have to say both Gould and Williams make BEGINNER LEVEL ERRORS with timing that is preserved on tape. For example I can only tolerate Gould Well temp book 2 of the C minor prelude as the correct interpretation ever recorded, however, playing along with him he BROKE THE NARRATIVE several times and I had to adjust my inner clock to go with him. It was not something I would call deliberate but something that could be worked on with a freaking metronome or even a click track version would have been better. Here it is:



Conversely, for your criticizing friend….maybe he is very good and hears what I hear too? I don’t know, but I for one am impressed with Niño Ricardo: an extremely filthy player in terms of notes, but in terms of his rhythm narrative holding he was one of the more important in flamenco history. Even he makes errors in solos that I have to deal with as a teacher, it is clear his musical objective is inspiring, without which we would never have a Paco de Lucía or Manolo Sanlucar or Nuñez, etc. (high points in flamenco guitar history).

So as to your question, I for one am going for being a bit cleaner than Niño Ricardo, but know I might never be as clean as Nuñez et al. I am happy with that. Let us hear your proffessional friend at work?



Manitas de Lata -> RE: Where do you draw the line at sounding ‘clean enough’ (Aug. 22 2024 15:03:26)

i didnt see a lot of classical guitar live , but the best performance that i saw was by Eduardo Isaac , he played classical , south American (Argentina) , and one extremly hard classical piece almost impossible , all perfect as can be and with an incredible feeling .








Ricardo -> RE: Where do you draw the line at sounding ‘clean enough’ (Aug. 22 2024 15:33:11)

quote:

all perfect as can be and with an incredible feeling .


If you like it great. I can’t tolerate the timing in that first piece at all. A hard days night? Like to see ringo drum to that. [:D]



Manitas de Lata -> RE: Where do you draw the line at sounding ‘clean enough’ (Aug. 22 2024 16:03:01)

lol

love his duet with the monster Daniel Binelli




Manitas de Lata -> RE: Where do you draw the line at sounding ‘clean enough’ (Aug. 23 2024 17:52:53)

hey , listen to this




Ricardo -> RE: Where do you draw the line at sounding ‘clean enough’ (Aug. 24 2024 15:24:06)

The whole thing or some part? Please point to what is so important.



Manitas de Lata -> RE: Where do you draw the line at sounding ‘clean enough’ (Aug. 24 2024 15:52:31)

whole stuff .

I heard some months ago that hes living in my country for quite some time.

Amazing performer , top. As a person everyone says that the guy is great (i dont give a **** )



trivium91 -> RE: Where do you draw the line at sounding ‘clean enough’ (Aug. 24 2024 17:44:11)

Makes sense, it seems many of the great flamenco players are criticized for not being clean enough.



metalhead -> RE: Where do you draw the line at sounding ‘clean enough’ (Aug. 24 2024 18:02:57)

Flamenco's main goal isn't the tone, it's about the drive. A drive that instills excitement. And for this drive, tone isn't the most important factor but rather the rhythm. Look at what this guy plays at 0:31:

https://youtu.be/L_iSsq6mc4U

It's anything but clean. But it has the drive just before he starts his bulerias compas, you see? A classical guitarist would dismiss it as lacking tone, but from a flamenco perspective it doesn't matter.



Manitas de Lata -> RE: Where do you draw the line at sounding ‘clean enough’ (Aug. 24 2024 20:09:56)

and theres other stuff regarding when playing , showing emotion whatever you re playing , and thats hard... the most hard stuff? to give a emotional performance? without that you can give whatever tone that it will sound cold stuff.. and for me thats the difference .
if you deliver emotion , mission acomplish.

i almost cried (thats hard...) with the opening of tomatito concert , specially with the tremolo .

I know a guy that delivers perfomance and emotion (even in flamenco ) , plays awesome the main styles, and its a shame that he doesnt give a **** to record , giving concerts , showing his art... , he prefers to give some classes having fun with that and give attention to some other stuff.

thanks for the nice video



Stu -> RE: Where do you draw the line at sounding ‘clean enough’ (Aug. 24 2024 22:49:21)

quote:

this guy


This guy!????[:D][&:]

I didn't watch. But I know the piece very well. I've sat in a room and played with Manuel valencia. He is clean, precise and accurate. By whatever standard you are judging his level of tone or lack of is most defo acceptable. Any roughness, buzz, growl, is flamenco. That's not to say he wouldn't have a clean and crisp tone when playing a more delicate piece.

Why don't your upload some of your playing? We could then tell you if your classical pal has a point or whether you have nothing to worry about.

I mean is it that you are playing good flamenco guitar with some characteristic buzz or are you just a sloppy beginner? We just can't know from words on a page



Manitas de Lata -> RE: Where do you draw the line at sounding ‘clean enough’ (Aug. 24 2024 23:54:18)

man i think you wanted to quote Trivium and not metal , metal referes the same as you in your reply

no need to thank



metalhead -> RE: Where do you draw the line at sounding ‘clean enough’ (Aug. 25 2024 5:36:12)

I gave a timestamp that's why. It's just a very small part that he kind of plays hastily. I didn't say he as a player lacks precision



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