RE: Can too much relief be altered during a full refret? (Full Version)

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silddx -> RE: Can too much relief be altered during a full refret? (Jul. 28 2024 12:04:52)

Ah ok. Here you go. It currently has new Gotoh tuners on in some of the pics, but I will be swapping them for the originals when I get the guitar back from Stephen.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/jo4gix9mfj0s0ip6kcz6v/AK8aHJPkdW7771V4ikwaJ2c?rlkey=9dk8y98dkoy4aj1uoll7o5net&st=i9df6lkz&dl=0



rombsix -> RE: Can too much relief be altered during a full refret? (Jul. 29 2024 2:44:20)

Wow - looks great, man! OMG though - so much dust inside! Is the luthier going to vacuum that out or clean it with compressed air or what? [:D] I want before and after photos to show how clean it's going to get. LOL



silddx -> RE: Can too much relief be altered during a full refret? (Jul. 29 2024 8:51:02)

Yeah, it’s like under my mate’s sofa. Dust is now gone, had to hire a cleaner.

If that dust underwent DNA testing I bet it could tell some stories.



Echi -> RE: Can too much relief be altered during a full refret? (Jul. 29 2024 16:28:16)

Just lovely. As I supposed it’s a quality guitar with the same features of those for sale with the Gravina 7 label. (Sobrinos de Esteso). Only difference are the tuners: yours are Fustero too but not engraved.
Top is quarter sawn with bearclaws and the neck is just one piece (no scarf joint at the headstock).
I actually own a Sonrinos made in 59 and your guitar in my guess is of the same year. Actually the cypress of your guitar is of better quality.
Interestingly the bracing pattern of your guitar has no closing bars as my ‘59 : it’s a bracing pattern your guitar shares with my ‘64 negra.



silddx -> RE: Can too much relief be altered during a full refret? (Jul. 29 2024 17:40:04)

Echi, this is wonderful information to have, thank you so much, I really appreciate it!

A couple of questions if I may.

Is the single-piece neck a good thing? Was this common?

I had no idea the tuners would be Fustero, I have (carefully) deep cleaned and lubricated them, they seem ok now and will be going back on the guitar. They weigh 128gms.

What is it that makes you think it may be a '59?

Thanks again, this is all fascinating to me, I really want to learn as much about the guitar as I can. The chap I bought it from is not a player, but his dear friend who owned the guitar sadly passed away recently. I kind of feel I owe it to the deceased previous owner, who clearly played it a lot and apparently owned it from the '70s, to know as much as I can about the guitar and give it some love.



Echi -> RE: Can too much relief be altered during a full refret? (Jul. 30 2024 9:45:05)

quote:

Is the single-piece neck a good thing? Was this common?

It was absolutely rare because in order to do it you must pick just a piece of very stable and well cut wood, and also a thicker piece as per the inclination of the headstock: 60 years of life proves it. In those years they used quality cuban mahogany (nowadays very rare) and the neck is particularly thin..

The Fustiero tuners are with the Fleta design: the difference is that the plate is not hand carved though and the buttons are not in mother pearl.

quote:

What is it that makes you think it may be a '59?


Basically in '59 the Conde brothers started a more organised way to build guitars, following the example of José Ramirez. They employed and trained few people and this affected in a positive way both the concert line and the studio line: All the guitars had a new rosette design (yours is a good example), more precision, the one piece neck (which was abandoned In the following years) , ebony purflings, a particularly thin bone saddle ecc.
Felipe Conde in his website defines the years 1959-1989 as the third epoch of the brand.
As I told you, your guitar is in fact indistinguishable from the concert model (at the time the media luna headstock wasn't used to distinguish them).
Rosette (yours is a Ramirez designed later abandoned) , one piece neck, bridge, the little shield at the foot and the whole quality tell me it's a '59.



silddx -> RE: Can too much relief be altered during a full refret? (Jul. 30 2024 12:10:50)

Fabulous! Thank you very much for this, Echi! I’m very grateful.



silddx -> RE: Can too much relief be altered during a full refret? (Aug. 1 2024 19:52:33)

Well the guitar is ready, turned out well according to Stephen, it now has a low action and plays very nicely. I can't wait to pick it up on Saturday.



silddx -> RE: Can too much relief be altered during a full refret? (Aug. 6 2024 20:50:27)

The guitar is amazing! I will post 'after' pics and a video soon, when I get a chance.

What Estebanana suggested is what Stephen Frith did, planed out at the nut end. Relief is perfect, really nice fret work. The unfretted action is 2.7mm low E 12th, lovely to play. Sounds beautiful and balanced, sonorous and profound, to my ears anyway.

Stephen Frith is in Crawley, Surrey, England https://www.frithguitar.com



rombsix -> RE: Can too much relief be altered during a full refret? (Aug. 7 2024 3:19:04)

quote:

I will post 'after' pics and a video soon, when I get a chance.


Vamossssssssss!



orsonw -> RE: Can too much relief be altered during a full refret? (Aug. 7 2024 11:22:36)

quote:

The guitar is amazing! I will post 'after' pics and a video soon, when I get a chance.


Pleased to hear it worked out well. Looking forward to a video.



silddx -> RE: Can too much relief be altered during a full refret? (Aug. 7 2024 18:01:55)

Ok there are 17 new photos in there, dated today, 07 August 2024.

I need to practice a bit before video!



rombsix -> RE: Can too much relief be altered during a full refret? (Aug. 8 2024 16:55:53)

quote:

Ok there are 17 new photos in there, dated today, 07 August 2024.


Wow, what a transformation!!! I need to see how clean it is inside the chamber now, though LOL can't be hiding that from us. I want to enjoy that dust-free internal view. Haha!

And come on man, no need to practice. Just play some F and E chords and let us hear the flamenco growl. And noodle a bit higher up on the trebles so we can hear them sing. Is that too much to ask!? Hahahaha!

Congratulations, man!



Ricardo -> RE: Can too much relief be altered during a full refret? (Aug. 8 2024 17:18:13)

Let’s here some of the same siguiriyas to compare with your other guitar (that sounded excellent by the way).



silddx -> RE: Can too much relief be altered during a full refret? (Aug. 8 2024 19:03:22)

quote:

Wow, what a transformation!!! I need to see how clean it is inside the chamber now, though LOL can't be hiding that from us. I want to enjoy that dust-free internal view. Haha!

And come on man, no need to practice. Just play some F and E chords and let us hear the flamenco growl. And noodle a bit higher up on the trebles so we can hear them sing. Is that too much to ask!? Hahahaha!

Congratulations, man!


Hehe! It's almost spotless inside now, I did that myself.

Yeah Steve did a wonderful rescue, he said it's a really nice guitar and that he enjoyed reviving another old Conde.

I've not been playing flamenco for very long so a good warm up is essential to prevent my looking like a fool, I may do anyway [:)]

Thanks Ramzi [:D]


quote:

Let’s here some of the same siguiriyas to compare with your other guitar (that sounded excellent by the way).


That's a nice idea Ricardo, I will do that, and thank you.

I have a busy couple of days coming but I will try to get a video up on Sunday. Also the old girl doesn't seem fond of the various D'Addarios I have tried, she has EJ45s on at the moment, I am not keen on the sound, especially the G, and the basses seem weak. Normally I like D'Addario carbon, but I like the thickness and sound of nylon on this guitar so I have ordered some Savarez 510MJ hard tension with a carbon G, let's see how they sound and feel.



silddx -> RE: Can too much relief be altered during a full refret? (Aug. 11 2024 17:40:45)

I tried a video but it's recorded on an iPhone 11 and it sounds boxy and compressed. I did the previous Siguiriya on a iPhone 6 and it was actually a better sound. It's also really hot and humid in London at the moment. I will try to do a better video. I am not happy with the one I did.



Ricardo -> RE: Can too much relief be altered during a full refret? (Aug. 12 2024 16:26:32)

iPhone 6= smart phone
iPhone 11 = dumb phone.

They think they are clever by using noise filters built in to optimize voice. Same with web cams and other things. When they transferred wax cylinder cante to digital most of the guitar is ruined by the noise filter that is trying to remove hiss and background noise which, unfortunately is part of the guitar tone. Vinyl remains the best.



Firefrets -> RE: Can too much relief be altered during a full refret? (Aug. 12 2024 17:01:05)

It's great that you're happy and the guitar has new life.

Do yourself a favour though, and change the way you string up on this guitar. Otherwise you're going to hurt her.

I take my E strings to the inside, and everything else goes outside. This helps stop the strings from hitting the headstock.

*Your D string for example looks like it is catching on the mid section. Just slacken off and flip them over. You can use extra winds to shift them across next time.



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px



silddx -> RE: Can too much relief be altered during a full refret? (Aug. 12 2024 17:02:08)

Ricardo, you are so right. I just tried with my work iPhone 6, it's like night and day!

Will try to get a video up soon.

Ok here you go, much better recording, not much better playing :D




silddx -> RE: Can too much relief be altered during a full refret? (Aug. 12 2024 19:37:55)

Thank you very much, FireFrets, I will absolutely do that. Greatly appreciated.

Looks like images are back on too, that's good.



Echi -> RE: Can too much relief be altered during a full refret? (Aug. 13 2024 11:18:41)

The guitar sounds as a nice old Conde but this recording and your playing style do not give full justice to it imho. My guess (owning a similar guitar) is that overtones and bass frequencies are just cut off from the recording.
The guitar has a strong fundamental and clear trebles which result in a raw and projecting sound when pushed hard. The guitars of this epoch have a lot of separation, while in the seventies the sound is more full body in my experience.
My 2 cents are that your technique probably likes more a responsive guitar with growing overtones even with a soft playing.
Anyway, good playing, very nice guitar and lucky man.



silddx -> RE: Can too much relief be altered during a full refret? (Aug. 13 2024 11:25:14)

All good points, Echi, thank you. I'm very much a beginner so hopefully I will continue to improve and earn the great privilege of owning and playing this guitar, as it deserves. I love its sonorous old school tonal qualities, so I'll be playing it a lot and hope to adapt to it better. Thanks again, and for all your help with information about its history.

What technique and other improvements do you think I should focus on to do justice to the guitar, if you don't mind?



Echi -> RE: Can too much relief be altered during a full refret? (Aug. 13 2024 14:18:29)

Well I didn’t mean to make comments on your technique and, to be honest, here in the foro you will find for sure better advices than mine.
My comment meant to be about the guitar. You have a gentle touch and that’s perfectly fine fior a home setting.. These kind of guitars - again, imho - give their best with a heavy right hand or solid picado. The Condes show their qualities in a Juerga or in a noisy environement where other guitars show to have less lungs.



silddx -> RE: Can too much relief be altered during a full refret? (Aug. 13 2024 17:07:43)

Thank you for that, Echi, that's what I need to know!



Ricardo -> RE: Can too much relief be altered during a full refret? (Aug. 13 2024 18:14:31)

Playing and tone are great. I like it better than the other guitar interms of focus and balance. The brilliance of these dry guitars is an illusion based on how you activate the treble strings. You tend to choke them off (in rasgueado you don’t even hit the high E). If you allow that open E to keep ringing after you play it (careful of pinky on the fretted D for example not to touch that open E), it makes the whole guitar sparkle.

Compare the opening falsetas I do here (similar dry conde Blanca with strong mid range), and pay attention to the open treble E and compare it to yours. It is subtle but makes a difference.



silddx -> RE: Can too much relief be altered during a full refret? (Aug. 13 2024 18:53:27)

Thank you very much, Ricardo, I'm buoyed by that!

Yes, I see what you mean, yours sounds brighter and there's more harmonic density, much nicer. And of course your execution and tone are just lovely. I have watched the video before, thank you so much for doing it. Great advice!

I need to adjust my left hand to be much more open, currently I find the proximal phalange of my index is touching the underside of the neck, like I'm playing electric with my thumb over the top. I think I do it to keep the guitar steady. Need to work on that.



Manitas de Lata -> RE: Can too much relief be altered during a full refret? (Aug. 18 2024 11:34:55)

Sounds great , you re on the right path
the guitar , well sounds ok i guess , dont know how much you paid , it seems not full explored , altough sounds nice.

Congrats man , hard work pays off



silddx -> RE: Can too much relief be altered during a full refret? (Aug. 18 2024 14:40:28)

Thank you, MdL!

I say what I paid for it earlier in the thread. With the luthiery I had done to revive it, it cost me £700. Absolutely lovely and inspiring guitar to play, a piece of history, sounds like it too. What can you get new for that level of cash, Cordoba F7 Paco?



Manitas de Lata -> RE: Can too much relief be altered during a full refret? (Aug. 18 2024 16:43:48)

new all solid , paco de castillo , prudencio , something around that, they re nice if you get lucky , you got ourself a very nice deal i guess

look forward for more videos! congrats!



silddx -> RE: Can too much relief be altered during a full refret? (Aug. 18 2024 20:08:26)

At the moment I'm really not interested in new flamenco guitars, even the wonderful guitars created by people like the amazing constructors on here whom I see as obsessive artists with incredible craft. I'm perfectly happy buying new electrics, but I rarely ever feel a close bond with an electric guitar or bass.

I suppose I have some romantic notion that an acoustic instrument is a living organism with a personality, but one that I want to be grown up and have some history and mystery.

But as I type this I'm realising that I am talking b0ll0cks, and actually to have a wonderful new guitar from Stephen Faulk, or Ethan Deutsch, or Ernandez R, or Firefrets, or any of the other splendid artisans on here would be an amazing thing, a chance to imprint myself on a new guitar and for it to imprint me. Alas, I do not yet have the level of flamenco craft to justify such lofty ideals. Or the money.

At the moment I am simply a guiri flamenco baby, loving the journey, delighting in my gentle progress, being a sponge.

I feel so privileged to have in my care two wonderful old guitars. One day I may acquire a new guitar, made by loving hands.



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