Do you believe in karma and reincarnation? (Full Version)

Foro Flamenco: http://www.foroflamenco.com/
- Discussions: http://www.foroflamenco.com/default.asp?catApp=0
- - Off Topic: http://www.foroflamenco.com/in_forum.asp?forumid=23
- - - Do you believe in karma and reincarnation?: http://www.foroflamenco.com/fb.asp?m=353489



Message

metalhead -> Do you believe in karma and reincarnation? (Apr. 23 2024 20:54:26)

If not, why are few given an upper hand in life and a few a lower hand?



AndresK -> RE: Do you believe in karma and reincarnation? (Apr. 23 2024 22:03:12)

Are we talking specifically about flamenco skill in cante, baile, guitarra etc.? Or generally geophilosophically? [:)]



Stu -> RE: Do you believe in karma and reincarnation? (Apr. 24 2024 7:49:45)

whats this about? off topic section?

or flamenco related karma?

I sometimes think Ive had a bad hand in life cos I wasn't born to a gitano family in jerez, and a guitar wasnt shoved into my hand at teh age of 5. usually when Im struggling with some picado run or rueing the lack of flamenco in my town.[:D]



Manitas de Lata -> RE: Do you believe in karma and reincarnation? (Apr. 24 2024 9:28:55)

Taco de Lucia



Ricardo -> RE: Do you believe in karma and reincarnation? (Apr. 24 2024 13:23:55)

quote:

ORIGINAL: metalhead

If not, why are few given an upper hand in life and a few a lower hand?


Science has answered orders of magnitude MORE philosophical “problems” and “mysteries” of the world than any other discipline, yet people still continue to point out the teeny tiny fraction of situations that remain contradictory or unresolved, and come away with “science hasn’t or CAN’T explain EVERYTHING!!! What about bla bla bla!!!”. This is simply dumb, I hate to say.

So where are we with THIS question? We observe too many hard truths in the animal kingdom, yet humans still are arguing if animals even have “consciousness” which is a silly question. This entire situation you bring up is explained perfectly by subjective biases based on COINCIDENCES. In the moments where a subjective experience tells us the TIMING of events seem to be correlated, it appears subjectively true and real. Yet, objectively, you can’t ever USE this thing to make accurate predictions over 50/50 odds.

For example, people treat me bad and I think “uh oh, they are gonna get hit hard”, which is “karma”. Well, it is inevitable they do…but it is my lack of ability to predict EXACTLY when this will happen, that makes me wonder if I am just LOOKING to connect two unrelated dots with a direct link. It is “creative” this thing our minds do. It is “real” to ME, but to the outside world, it is just coincidence. It has taken me many years to accept this situation, but hate to say, there is nothing to any of these interpretations of the meta physical.

When we are dealt a bad hand, unfortunately, it is understandable to want to lash out at the world, yet we scold these individuals. I once observed a huge killer bee sized wasp violently stinging only ONE of a pair of mating “wasps” of a different weird looking species, and finally eating its brains, while the partner, coupled in copulation, was just dangling by the rear end as it waited for the violence to end. It was so disturbing to me I went on line and discovered that the Robber fly, disguised as a bee or wasp with black and yellow stripes, invades Wasp nests, inserts its probiscus into the head of a wasp and sucks out its brains. I was observing the exact OPPOSITE scenario. I could not find literature on Wasps doing the SAME thing to a Robber fly…so this scene I observed looks exactly like REVENGE. [:D]

So, what I am getting at, it is not just human to want to come to terms with bad luck, it could be all life is dealing with this issue. As far as we can tell, life begins at birth and stops at death (if not, why even bother to reproduce?). “Reincarnation” is occurring with every natural child birth…that is what genes are. Coincidence needs to SUFFICE as true explanation for spooky correlations, until MORE DATA is acquired and interpreted via the scientific method.



Piwin -> RE: Do you believe in karma and reincarnation? (Apr. 24 2024 14:31:26)

Not really, but tbh I'm not even sure karma and reincarnation would provide an adequate answer to your question anyway. If it all boils down to those two things, then you either end up with infinite regress or you have to posit that there was a point in time when we were all equal (and then we made different choices and that got the whole karma thing rolling. The obvious follow-up question would be: when would that time have been?). Neither of those seem particularly good answers to me. Karma and the like can make sense to me, but only if it's seen as one factor among others.

Life isn't fair. Those of us who are decent people try to rectify that and create a world where everyone at least has their basic needs met and opportunities to improve and enjoy life. Then you have those who resort to religious or biological narratives to try and justify why we shouldn't do that, and why they should continue to have the right to stomp on the necks of others. The latter position is called conservatism (ooooh shots fired [:D]).

I'll admit though: some of the literature from those traditions does pack one hell of a punch. The assu sutta is probably the most moving religious text I've ever read, and it wouldn't make much sense outside of that context of reincarnation and whatnot.



metalhead -> RE: Do you believe in karma and reincarnation? (Apr. 24 2024 15:25:43)

How do you know that science is right. This could all be an illusion and science is merely explaining anything, and what if the real truth lies in these metaphysical things

Also I get the idea, that you did believe in these things for a long time, but something happened midway and you went the purely science is right way, correct me if I'm wrong.

It's not a coincidence, and I'm not saying that you need to believe in karma only if it's right. It could be wrong but if believing in karma explained the shorter hand you got in life and it keeps you happy, would it really matter.

Delusions are the best because they keep you happy, and the best part about delusions are, they don't have to be right. As long as they make you happy, that's all the matters I think



Morante -> RE: Do you believe in karma and reincarnation? (Apr. 24 2024 17:15:57)

I remember someone who studied all religions and decided that 40,000 existed. I see this as an underestimate. So every religion has a god or a dominant belief. Logic would suggest that this is a clear indication that the ser humano invented god and continues to invent god, not the other way around.

So life is just a series of casualidades, with a beginning and an end[;)] Try to enjoy what you have left.



metalhead -> RE: Do you believe in karma and reincarnation? (Apr. 24 2024 20:52:35)

Tbh, I'm starting to see myself shifting towards left from right. I used to be a conservative once upon a time, but I'm seeing maybe it's not the right way. How nice it would be to make a world , where everybody could do anything of their own with freedom without judgement by others. But conservatism is not the only thing ringing everything , there's also greed



Richard Jernigan -> RE: Do you believe in karma and reincarnation? (Apr. 26 2024 2:20:53)

quote:

ORIGINAL: metalhead

How do you know that science is right. This could all be an illusion and science is merely explaining anything, and what if the real truth lies in these metaphysical things



Magic is the belief that if you perform certain acts, specific things will occur. Science is magic that actually works.

RNJ



estebanana -> RE: Do you believe in karma and reincarnation? (Apr. 26 2024 4:12:51)

Karma is a Hindu concept that at its most fundamental level means there is a moral answer to a persons actions. Separate from the idea of past or future lives, karma is a not unlike a Greco-Western concept that there are consequences for your actions. At its most simple.

The idea that people can live past lives and its relationship to karma means that you are also responsible for your actions in past lives and that the consequences of the actions in a past life can be manifested in any current or future life.

Whether or not you think re birth through a succession of lives is real or not, karma is a separate notion that there is a cause and effect process on actions moral or immoral.

A suggestion on how to go about understanding the karmic mechanics of reincarnation is to look at reincarnation as a metaphor instead of a real phenomenon. This way you don’t have to make decisions about whether science is valid or not. Science is valid because its process of proving that phenomena happen according to some definable theory and observations of processes in nature. Reincarnation can be explored by seeing it as metaphor in terms of past actions and consequences. It’s not spelled out in a legalistic code of spiritual felonies like sin is described in Dante’s Inferno, so it’s unpredictable how action and consequences are ‘meted out’.

In Dante’s story there’s a level of severity and an order to his spiritual penal system ( which resembles a 19th century version of a pan opticicon prison ) that is organized by category of sin. If you dig into Hindu books on karma there isn’t a direct correlation, but you could look at Dante’s Inferno as a metaphor much easier than a real phenomenon. So the same is with the idea of a cycle of death and rebirth that includes a pan-lifetime permanent record of actions and consequences.

It’s metaphor until you actually die and come back with demonstrable non delusional consciousness of a past life or two.

I hope that helps.



Ricardo -> RE: Do you believe in karma and reincarnation? (Apr. 26 2024 15:11:34)

quote:

How do you know that science is right. This could all be an illusion and science is merely explaining anything, and what if the real truth lies in these metaphysical things


Science never was nor ever will be under such obligation. It is not possible to run an experiment infinity times, so the possibility always remains that the outcome based on the model (an interpretation based on assumptions and observation of limited data points collected) will turn out wrong. Hence, the standard used is 1 in 5 million or so, is considered “NOT WRONG”. That is very different than claiming it is “right and true”. People always screw up that language.

If it is an illusion this changes nothing at all. The above is still holding, as we learn how the “illusion” functions and can predict how it evolves. If “truth” is “outside” of testability, then there no need to make predictions based upon it because it has no relevance on our “illusion” anyway. It is very simple. It is fun or entertaining to think about of course, but a waste of time if not dangerous to put credence into that stuff. Of course people like to go to the edge of understanding and ability to experiment, however, they never go back and try to deconstruct the obvious working models, and take many for granted that possibly deserve scrutiny. Scientists are constantly doing exactly that, but you don’t hear about it in the news unless something weird happens (usually an error or misinterpretation.).

People get angry with science, that it “makes claims” or claims to know things…but that is NOT what it is about. It is about cutting through the ocean of BS that floats around so we can get our bearings. Nothing more. When a model starts failing, or a much better one replaces it, there are no hard feelings there, the community enjoys changing its mind. Look at the ridiculous Pluto thing. Jeezzus stupid people. As a little kid I made a solar system model in the basement and was pissed off at Pluto for wandering inside Neptune orbit and other stupid things this “planet” does. As an adult I was finally satisfied that it got kicked off the list. These “adults” that can’t grasp the concept because of the emotional attachment to a list of 9 things their kid brains memorized, is exactly why they push against certain science claims in general. They are adverse to the changes that MUST and SHOULD occur, and think THAT is the failure of science, when it has everything to do with why it is the ONLY thing that works in these cases.

quote:

Also I get the idea, that you did believe in these things for a long time, but something happened midway and you went the purely science is right way, correct me if I'm wrong.


Exactly opposite. I had an experience that led me to believe in voodoo for a long time, and confirmation bias let it run on and on, for a while, but over time as I learned more about how science works, I shed it little by little. An old lady I had a discussion with brought a similar thing up recently which I had already moved past that I had also experienced and I decided to run the experiment for her sake, thinking to prove a 50/50 outcome or worse, it ended being zero out of 100. Much worse. So you can imagine I run the experiment a thousand times and the odds probably get even worse. There is no voodoo, hate to say (but don’t tell my guitars that, they still believe they are being protected!).

quote:

It could be wrong but if believing in karma explained the shorter hand you got in life and it keeps you happy, would it really matter.

Yes it matters because you could waste time that could be spent improving your life when you are sitting there “believing” that better times are coming. Unless you are physically being prevented against your will, the worse evil I can imagine, anyone should be able to work toward improving their situation. Not saying it is “easy”, but possible. The world is what WE make of it, in other words.



Morante -> RE: Do you believe in karma and reincarnation? (Apr. 26 2024 16:18:21)

quote:

It’s metaphor until you actually die and come back with demonstrable non delusional consciousness of a past life or two.


This concept is really ridiculous:

if you return in the same body and brain ( something which has never been observed) the overpoulation of the world would accelerate. If you return with another body and another brain, how come nobody has this consciousness?

Marx had it right: region is the hachis of the people. The Bell Curve shows that most people are not intelligent enough to think about these things.












































































.



Piwin -> [Deleted] (Apr. 26 2024 18:32:40)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Apr. 26 2024 19:56:30



BarkellWH -> RE: Do you believe in karma and reincarnation? (Apr. 26 2024 20:42:18)

quote:

Delusions are the best because they keep you happy, and the best part about delusions are, they don't have to be right. As long as they make you happy, that's all the matters I think


If we followed your line of thinking, mankind would not have advanced at all. Most of the discoveries and inventions that have improved life around the planet have been made by the West. The telescope, microscope, spectacles, gyroscope, relativity, quantum mechanics, Blood flow, germ theory, the mechanical clock, Gutenberg's movable type and printing press, the steam engine, heavier-than-air flight, and a hundred others. It all occurred because the West has valued individual effort and inquiry which led to the eighteenth century Enlightenment and the Scientific Method.

Those are the keys, the eighteenth century Enlightenment and the Scientific Method. While the West pioneered many of these discoveries, they are really hallmarks of modernity. The West (with some exceptions, primarily in mathematics by the Arabs and Indians) just discovered them first. But it is important to note why the West discovered them while others did not. It was due to cultural factors that valued individual effort and rationality, which separated the realms of the sacred and the secular, which when fused together held back (and continues to hold back) whole swaths of mankind.

In my opinion, to extoll the virtues of delusions "because they keep you happy" is tantamount to saying "ignorance is bliss."

Bill



devilhand -> RE: Do you believe in karma and reincarnation? (Apr. 26 2024 22:48:52)

I can't answer your question. Why not watch and enjoy a movie about reincarnation?
2 movies come to mind.






estebanana -> RE: Do you believe in karma and reincarnation? (Apr. 27 2024 0:43:41)

Morante, you might have misinterpreted what I said. Until you meet someone who has demonstrable knowledge of their own past lives and can prove it, then this idea remains a metaphor.

Your point about over population by ‘souls’ being reborn is also addressed in Buddhism. Marxism is also another belief system like a man created religion.



estebanana -> RE: Do you believe in karma and reincarnation? (Apr. 27 2024 10:23:56)

https://www.yourconroenews.com/neighborhood/moco/sports/article/Robber-flies-function-as-both-predator-and-prey-9249402.php


I did a little reading on Robber flies, globally there are 7004 species, with 100 species in Florida alone. Maybe the wasp on robber violence was another species of robber fly eating a robber fly while it’s trying to get some sex. Or as we’d say in California, just another day in DC politics.



estebanana -> RE: Do you believe in karma and reincarnation? (Apr. 27 2024 10:35:56)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH

quote:

Delusions are the best because they keep you happy, and the best part about delusions are, they don't have to be right. As long as they make you happy, that's all the matters I think


If we followed your line of thinking, mankind would not have advanced at all. Most of the discoveries and inventions that have improved life around the planet have been made by the West. The telescope, microscope, spectacles, gyroscope, relativity, quantum mechanics, Blood flow, germ theory, the mechanical clock, Gutenberg's movable type and printing press, the steam engine, heavier-than-air flight, and a hundred others. It all occurred because the West has valued individual effort and inquiry which led to the eighteenth century Enlightenment and the Scientific Method.

Those are the keys, the eighteenth century Enlightenment and the Scientific Method. While the West pioneered many of these discoveries, they are really hallmarks of modernity. The West (with some exceptions, primarily in mathematics by the Arabs and Indians) just discovered them first. But it is important to note why the West discovered them while others did not. It was due to cultural factors that valued individual effort and rationality, which separated the realms of the sacred and the secular, which when fused together held back (and continues to hold back) whole swaths of mankind.

In my opinion, to extoll the virtues of delusions "because they keep you happy" is tantamount to saying "ignorance is bliss."

Bill



In Buddhism, ignorance as delusion is the cause or perpetuator of suffering.
Which after a life contemplating karmic consequences it prompted Sylvester the Cat to formulate the saying that instantaneously denotes an action or situation as an event wrought with delusion.

Sufferin’ Succotash



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px



metalhead -> RE: Do you believe in karma and reincarnation? (Apr. 27 2024 13:15:17)

Yea, I'm of the same opinion of this. One good thing about the West is it has always valued personal creativity and individualism. Hinduism and most other religions in Asia, tend to be group-centric and do not promote personal expression. If there's one thing that's stopping me from fully accepting the concept of Karma and reincarnation, it's the fact that it's associated with Hinduism, which I can't stand at all (for good reasons). And I say that as an Indian



estebanana -> RE: Do you believe in karma and reincarnation? (Apr. 27 2024 13:37:26)

quote:

ORIGINAL: metalhead

Yea, I'm of the same opinion of this. One good thing about the West is it has always valued personal creativity and individualism. Hinduism and most other religions in Asia, tend to be group-centric and do not promote personal expression. If there's one thing that's stopping me from fully accepting the concept of Karma and reincarnation, it's the fact that it's associated with Hinduism, which I can't stand at all (for good reasons). And I say that as an Indian




Oh wow, this is interesting! So you’re a sleeper pretending to be a confused westerner, but you’re really a south Asian with Hindu baggage. Tell me more.



metalhead -> RE: Do you believe in karma and reincarnation? (Apr. 27 2024 13:42:42)

When did i insinuate I was a westerner?



Ricardo -> RE: Do you believe in karma and reincarnation? (Apr. 27 2024 15:45:39)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

https://www.yourconroenews.com/neighborhood/moco/sports/article/Robber-flies-function-as-both-predator-and-prey-9249402.php


I did a little reading on Robber flies, globally there are 7004 species, with 100 species in Florida alone. Maybe the wasp on robber violence was another species of robber fly eating a robber fly while it’s trying to get some sex. Or as we’d say in California, just another day in DC politics.


Thanks for that. However, no I got a close look. The giant stinging bee-looking wasp (probably a killer bee or related species) had a long retractable stinger that it knew how to use very well. And the brain eating was pretty messy…no clean straw involved. When it (wasp) was done and flew away slowly it sounded like a freakin helicopter. The robber fly mate was the one hanging on to the bicycle tire in my driveway, just waited patiently until I detached the dangling dead and mutilated mate with a stick. He or she then flew away, unharmed (unless some part was left behind, ouch). Definitely a targeted attack, and the body types are quite easy to distinguish up close. Since both species are fairly viscous animals, I can’t say who was the bad guy in this scenario.



Ricardo -> RE: Do you believe in karma and reincarnation? (Apr. 27 2024 15:49:22)

quote:

ORIGINAL: metalhead

When did i insinuate I was a westerner?


Well, “metalhead” or “headbanger” is certainly global these days, however, with good English skills an assumption could be made in favor of “Westerner”. This was of course before I came across this crazy Sufi lady![:D]
(Starting about 0:38 or so).




metalhead -> RE: Do you believe in karma and reincarnation? (Apr. 27 2024 15:58:28)

Wtf, she can surely show metalheads who's the real boss 🤣



JasonM -> RE: Do you believe in karma and reincarnation? (Apr. 27 2024 18:17:54)

The opposite for me. Always anti religious. But I had an experience recently that made me pay more mind to metaphysical voodoo quackery. I’ve always been a practical minded science buff even through some really rough periods of life. But this experience was enough to convince (or fool) me into thinking there might be something else. Maybe a select couple of humans have the ability to taste this metaphysical spiritual “thing”, and there are many interpretations for it.

Despite my experience with the Woo, I still don’t completely drink the kool aid. There is the whole bayseyian prior probabilities, self reinforcing thought process that is a slippery slope.



devilhand -> RE: Do you believe in karma and reincarnation? (Apr. 27 2024 23:27:10)

I do believe in reincarnation. I was being serious when I posted this back in 2020.

quote:

During the civil war in Spain one die-hard aficionado who mastered flamenco guitar and accompaniment like no one else, left Spain to the USA. After he died, his soul was reincarnated as Mr. Marlow and sent him to the foro.

Foro is a strange place. A few years ago they tried to get rid of me. Some supernatural force sent me back to foro again and again. I'm still here. I believe I'm a reincarnation of a guy who created Solea. I vaguely remember it. The year was 1653. What I can tell you is eveything happens for a reason. Eveything is interconnected.



estebanana -> RE: Do you believe in karma and reincarnation? (Apr. 28 2024 1:15:55)

Metalhead instead of Bollyhead? 😂


quote:

ORIGINAL: metalhead

When did i insinuate I was a westerner?



That thing about Asian religion squelching creativity, not so fast. That a history I’ve studied both in the west and in Asia and it’s not true. The idea that in the west there is an emphasis on individuality in creativity is a fairly late development, and at different times in history the east and west swap places in terms of emphasis on individuality in art.

If I had a doctorate degree it would be on this subject, so you cannot trust a word I say. 😆



metalhead -> RE: Do you believe in karma and reincarnation? (Apr. 28 2024 6:31:00)

You've no idea what you're talking about man, shut the arrogance. Asian religions have always emphasized on being a group-based society. Serving the society rather than yourself has been the goal of all religions of Asia. Where do you think the idea of dharma (serving) comes from? Why do you think Asian societies tend to be judgemental while most western countries have idgaf attitude?

And what's being a metalhead has to do with a westerner? I've been a punk, rock, metal and flamenco fan, all rare to find in Asia, but not impossible.



estebanana -> RE: Do you believe in karma and reincarnation? (Apr. 28 2024 7:55:44)

quote:

ORIGINAL: metalhead

You've no idea what you're talking about man, shut the arrogance. Asian religions have always emphasized on being a group-based society. Serving the society rather than yourself has been the goal of all religions of Asia. Where do you think the idea of dharma (serving) comes from? Why do you think Asian societies tend to be judgemental while most western countries have idgaf attitude?

And what's being a metalhead has to do with a westerner? I've been a punk, rock, metal and flamenco fan, all rare to find in Asia, but not impossible.



Dude, or shall I call you Zenmasterflash? How old are are you? Because you’re either a stupid 20 year old or a very stupid 40 year old. You come asking about karma and reincarnation then argue with people who are entertaining your notions. Why don’t you go sit in a cave for 6 months with a bag of peanuts to eat and then come back and enlighten us?

I’ve been studying western and Asian art history for forty years and I studied at the national academy of art in Hangzhou China. I have a masters degree in art history from Mills College and I’m more than qualified to teach art history.

Your mistake is to assume that in western art the primacy of the individual over the group is a priori. It’s not, study Christian art for starters.

Or better yet, just go fook your self because I’ve learned not not to waste teaching effort on dweebs like you.

Do you even understand what ‘a priori’ means? 😂 probably not



Page: [1] 2    >   >>

Valid CSS!




Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET