I was surprised to hear acha at 4:07 and 7:30-7:35. Another way to express ole? Maybe not really surprised because as far as I know acha is urdu word. It's used to express agreement for example Yes, Great, Fine, Allright etc. Urdu is a language spoken in Pakistan and India where gitanos originally came from. Anyone heard someone saying acha during cante or baile?
A quick search seems to confirm it's commonly used. I've heard it many times, but never bothered looking it up.
Manitas de Lata -> RE: Acha! (Mar. 9 2024 11:54:22)
what a player , no fancy stuff , just get it done...
RobF -> RE: Acha! (Mar. 9 2024 12:45:03)
Literal translation: Git down!
Reference: Every song Mick Jagger ever sang on circa 1968-72.
devilhand -> RE: Acha! (Mar. 9 2024 13:28:21)
quote:
ORIGINAL: RobF
Literal translation: Git down!
Reference: Every song Mick Jagger ever sang on circa 1968-72.
Acha. It may well be arza or in english get down. But I wouldnt rule out acha here. Anyhow, acha made it to the cambridge dictionary as a new loanword. A relatively new entry in 2020.
Acha. It may well be arza or in english get down. But I wouldnt rule out acha here
Come on man! Jeezus. What an acha.
The expression “Toma que Toma”, or just “Toma”, or “Arsa y Toma”, or just “Arsa” are all saying the same type of expression, meaning you are doing something good, keep doing that.
Here Traka tra, ka traka tra, ay!, ole y arsa y Toma!” And “Arsa y Toma, arsa y Toma, trabili Tran”…
I will give your confused ear this: When they say mucho or noche for example, it comes out as “musho” or “no say”. So “acha” might sound as “Asha or “asa” as you wanted to believe. But the expression yelled is what we have said “arsa”. Arza might come out as Artha similar to Alzapúa, so I am pretty sure the word is “arsa” as spelled.
In the end you might want to ask yourself why it is that when you ask a question based on a conjecture, and several people that know better generously out of the goodness of their heart, correct you, why do you still cling to your own wrong idea???
Manitas de Lata -> RE: Acha! (Mar. 9 2024 22:24:45)
and if your ear "Venga" dont get confused to "come" or to "go"
[:D]
Piwin -> RE: Acha! (Mar. 9 2024 23:31:17)
quote:
But I wouldnt rule out acha here.
I would. Not that your idea was necessarily a bad one. But yeah, sorry here it's really just alza.
I suppose there is a tiny chance that they're just telling the guitarist to get on with it or they'll be late to catch the bus. Alsa... oh shut up I'm tired. [8D]
If you guys read the history of urdu language, you wont rule it out. Acha or arsa might have the same origin and meaning. Who knows we're dealing here with words coming from the arabic language.
Piwin -> RE: Acha! (Mar. 10 2024 15:27:30)
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If you guys read the history of urdu language, you wont rule it out.
Yes, I would.
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Acha or arsa might have the same origin and meaning.
That's what you're not getting. There is no "acha". That's just you mishearing it. The entirety of Andalucia would tell you either alza or arza, which is just a common phonological difference between some Andalucian forms of Spanish and the standard.
quote:
Who knows we're dealing here with words coming from the arabic language.
Sure, you could try and argue that alza/arza traces back to Urdu "accha" or whatever. You could also argue that a barking dog has something to do with bars and kings. But for your own sake, which of course comes from Japanese rice liquors, I'd avoid that kind of surface-level analysis...
Ricardo -> RE: Acha! (Mar. 10 2024 15:59:31)
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The entirety of Andalucia would tell you either alza or arza
Hopefully a native speaker can clarify, as I said earlier, we hear “al-tha-poo-ah”, but you will NEVER hear “al-Tha” by itself. It is always “arsa”, with “sss” sound only. If you put in “alza la Mano” vs “arsa la Mano” into google translate, it says in English “Raise the hand” vs “grab the hand”. So clearly “arsa y toma” “grab and take” is more in line with what the jaleo is saying in context vs “alza” which is raise or lift as in alzapua referring to raising the thumb. However i can’t find a base word for the command “arsa” to grab something.
BarkellWH -> RE: Acha! (Mar. 10 2024 16:45:07)
quote:
If you guys read the history of urdu language, you wont rule it out. Acha or arsa might have the same origin and meaning. Who knows we're dealing here with words coming from the arabic language.
As someone who lived and worked in Pakistan for a period of time, I would like to contribute to this discussion on "acha" and the Urdu language. The first thing to note is Urdu belongs to the Indo-European family of languages. It is not derived from Arabic, which is a Semitic language. Urdu has been heavily influenced by Persian, another Indo-European language that was the court language of Mughal India when it was ruled by the Mughals before the British supplanted them.
Although Urdu and English are the two official languages of Pakistan, Urdu is not indigenous to any group in Pakistan except those called Mohajirs who originated in Northern India and migrated to Pakistan when it became independent in 1947. Urdu was never used by the people who lived in the area of north-west India that is now Pakistan.
The gypsies are thought to have migrated out of India centuries ago. We don't know from which area of India they originated. To think that Andalusian gitanos today are using words that we know to be derived from Urdu such as "acha" requires a leap of faith that defies logic. Not only is the word you think you are hearing not "acha," but linguistically we can discount it as even a remote possibility.
Bill
Stu -> RE: Acha! (Mar. 10 2024 17:15:00)
Devilhand: Fair enough everyone. Seems I was entirely wrong. You guys clearly know what you're talking about and I gracefully admit I got this one wrong. Thanks
🤭
Piwin -> RE: Acha! (Mar. 10 2024 17:17:03)
quote:
If you put in “alza la Mano” vs “arsa la Mano” into google translate, it says in English “Raise the hand” vs “grab the hand”
I mean, when I put "arsa la mano" in DeepL I get "arsing the hand"... [:D]
I'm not aware of any "arsar" or "assar" verb in Spanish. There's "asar" for cooking, but doesn't have anything to do with grabbing. For that meaning of grabbing the closest I can think of would be "asir". In the imperative form you can get things like "asga" and whatnot, which I guess is kind of close? Though tbh kind of weird verb to use when they'd use "coger" 99.99% of the time.
I hear the jaleo in one of two ways (though, like devilhand, I'm not immune to phonological deafness). Either the r/l is aspirated, in which case you get ah-sa, or it is assimilated, in which case you get as-sa.
Dunno if it's only ever seseo. But if you're right, rather than looking for another word, personally I'd just take it as yet another example of just how much of a clusterfúck the ceceo-seseo thing is in Andalucia. Off the top of my head I'd say it might have something to do with stress? Or perhaps it has just fossilized into a rigid form in that context? Honestly dunno.
devilhand -> RE: Acha! (Mar. 11 2024 0:11:09)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stu
Devilhand: Fair enough everyone. Seems I was entirely wrong. You guys clearly know what you're talking about and I gracefully admit I got this one wrong. Thanks
🤭
I don't care. As a guitarist I will not use these words anyway. In general tocaor don't use exclamatory words. They just play and let the guitar speak and sing.
Ricardo -> RE: Acha! (Mar. 11 2024 13:54:14)
quote:
Either the r/l is aspirated, in which case you get ah-sa, or it is assimilated, in which case you get as-sa.
You are not perceiving the “r” sound? I mean again, even less reason to think it is an L sound then. Just slow down the Manolo Sanlucar video I posted and you can hear the “r” of “arsa y toma”, which phonetically is “are sigh toe mah”. At 2:07 during the “rap” he holds the r out, “ole, que ole que, arrrrr sa y toma y que-ar sa y toma.” So many people I guess don’t hear the “r” in there and come up with Hassa type stuff, which is wrong.
Ricardo -> RE: Acha! (Mar. 11 2024 14:05:22)
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I don't care.
Neither do we.
Stu -> RE: Acha! (Mar. 11 2024 15:13:36)
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I don't care. As a guitarist I will not use these words anyway. In general tocaor don't use exclamatory words. They just play and let the guitar speak and sing.
You're wrong again man. So you'd care if it was Acha, but not of it is arsa? [:D]
Also don't be so obtuse.
How many guitarist have I met in spain that also dance a little? That also sing? That defo do palmas? That certainly shout jaleos!? Many. And how many dancers, singers palmeros that can play a bit of guitar? Often better than me.... And I've devoted all my time to that?! Plenty too. What you realise after a while, is that flamenco is all of that stuff, not just one thing. Sure your thing might be the guitar. But when you're in a room with 20 other guitarists at a fiesta or whatever. they don't need your guitar. And during all the chaos and good times you might find yourself without a guitar and just you hands and your voice. And if you really feel the vibes I defy you to not wanna clap, stamp a foot and shout ole or Arzaaaa!
Piwin -> RE: Acha! (Mar. 11 2024 17:08:43)
quote:
You are not perceiving the “r” sound? I mean again, even less reason to think it is an L sound then.
Liquid consonants are often aspirated in Andalusian Spanish, so me hearing aspiration there is consistent with both "l" and "r". Regardless, I'm not arguing that the sound is "l". I'm just saying that the jaleo comes from the verb "alzar", and in standard Spanish it would be written "alza". Everything else is just a regional variation on that. That they spell it "arsa" doesn't contradict that, not anymore than the fact that some English speakers write "gonna" contradicts the fact that it comes from "going to". Looking for another verb or for obscure Urdu ancestry is a waste of time IMHO.
Re: the fact that it's only ever pronounced "arsa" in flamenco (and not "artha" or whatever), if that's true then personally I'd probably just think it fossilized that way for that particular context. A bit like how you pronounce "defence" in US English. "Congress decided to invest 60 gazillion dollars more in military defence". "Your honor, the defence rests". You read both of those by stressing the second syllable. daFENCE. But if we're in the middle of a basketball game and I shout "Ricardo, get your ass back on "daFENCE!", you're probably going to ask: "What fence?!". Because for whatever reason, in the US in that very specific context of sports, it fossilized as "DEEfence", with stress on the first syllable, and it would sound weird to you if anyone pronounced it differently. The same might be true of "arsa".
Manitas de Lata -> RE: Acha! (Mar. 11 2024 20:02:36)
common Lads , move your Arrrrses (scot accent)
Richard Jernigan -> RE: Acha! (Mar. 11 2024 23:52:38)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stu
quote:
I don't care. As a guitarist I will not use these words anyway. In general tocaor don't use exclamatory words. They just play and let the guitar speak and sing.
You're wrong again man. So you'd care if it was Acha, but not of it is arsa? [:D]
Also don't be so obtuse.
How many guitarist have I met in spain that also dance a little? That also sing? That defo do palmas? That certainly shout jaleos!? Many. And how many dancers, singers palmeros that can play a bit of guitar? Often better than me.... And I've devoted all my time to that?! Plenty too. What you realise after a while, is that flamenco is all of that stuff, not just one thing. Sure your thing might be the guitar. But when you're in a room with 20 other guitarists at a fiesta or whatever. they don't need your guitar. And during all the chaos and good times you might find yourself without a guitar and just you hands and your voice. And if you really feel the vibes I defy you to not wanna clap, stamp a foot and shout ole or Arzaaaa!
....or even in a recording studio. Ricardo has argued that the cante is not microtonal, pointing out that it does not use the intervals of conventionally microtonal music. But in flamenco pitches are bent slightly sharp or flat for expressive purposes.
Here
Melchor is so moved by Mairena's mastery of pitch that he breaks out into jaleo at 2:27.
RNJ
Manitas de Lata -> RE: Acha! (Mar. 12 2024 9:05:07)
if you see "my" video "gipsies hassles gipsies on tomatito topic you ear many times "assa" or " aça" , they really dont care how to say it
Ricardo -> RE: Acha! (Mar. 12 2024 11:16:11)
quote:
Melchor is so moved by Mairena's mastery of pitch that he breaks out into jaleo at 2:27.
In case you are insinuating that was a deliberate pitch bend on the held note, well, this would simply not be the case on that 4th interval. Melchor, who is keeping Compás liked how the release came after the hold relative to how he is feeling the phrase internally (the releasing being the rapid descending scale to tonic, which was fast as any Paco picado). So I would say mastery of phrasing more than pitch control.
Ricardo -> RE: Acha! (Mar. 12 2024 11:17:30)
quote:
you ear many times "assa" or " aça" , they really dont care how to say it
Ok, I hear no such thing. I hear “arsa”…not “assa archa aza arza nor alza”. That is simply not how those things would sound. However, I am bowing out of this topic now.
Richard Jernigan -> RE: Acha! (Mar. 12 2024 16:23:09)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo So I would say mastery of phrasing more than pitch control.
Mairena is not always as accurate on pitch as he is in this clip. Here he is both remarkably accurate and nuanced.
Maybe each of us is attributing his own feeling to Melchor.
Melchor is simply ablaze here, igniting on the first chord.
