Help w/Identifying a Recording (Full Version)

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Romerito -> Help w/Identifying a Recording (Aug. 24 2023 6:12:03)

This is a Paco Aguilera falseta por alegrias first recorded in the 40s or 50s. I have so many notes that I cannot find the original citation. The bottom line of the second graphic is Cepero's version. So, Aguilera looks to be the first to move to the relative phrygian in an alegrias context. Cepero and de Lucia have their versions (de Lucia's is the last graphic).

Anyone know where they might be found (which recordings)



Ricardo -> RE: Help w/Identifying a Recording (Aug. 24 2023 12:13:49)

If they were for singers, not solo guitar recordings, we need the singers names to find them.

Second graphic B and C have same tab but different notes in the third bar.

All the examples look suspiciously “Niño Ricard-ian” in style. I know his Alegrias and Bulerias de Cadiz in A major, both have full compases of “C# Phrygian”…technically speaking. As with your examples I don’t feel they are modulations, rather passing chords. Ricardo resolves these passages to F#m typically, before weaving back to A major. In order to call something a “relative Phrygian modulation”, I would prefer to see a Phrygian cadence and remate (example: instead it would be A major lydian type melody, or C# minor resolving to G# from F#m or A maj, on 10, contextually).



Romerito -> RE: Help w/Identifying a Recording (Aug. 24 2023 19:41:30)

Thanks. I found some of them.
Paco Aguilera with Mairena. 1951 Second CD in the Mairena Antologia

00:14 falseta begins
00:24 move to III# (relative phrygian)

Antonio Arenas with Lebrijano (Can't locate)

and Jacinto Almaden.

01:32

Paco Cepero with Sordera

00:22

and Rancapino. (Can't find it)

Antonio Arenas also plays a variation with la Perla.

00:34

And Paco Cepero has a version with la Perla in A major.

00:32

All 50s to early 70s. That would all make sense since Paco, Sanlucar and others have stated that they were all Ricardianos.

quote:

Ricardo resolves these passages to F#m typically, before weaving back to A major. In order to call something a “relative Phrygian modulation”, I would prefer to see a Phrygian cadence and remate (example: instead it would be A major lydian type melody, or C# minor resolving to G# from F#m or A maj, on 10, contextually).

Who said anything about modulation?
I cannot find anything before 1951 where a guitarist uses III# in major, especially in an accompaniment context (not solo guitar - need to go bak and listen to ricardo and old guys). I am not counting Caracoles because there is a brief tonicization usually in C. I used a neutral term (move) to avoid any confusion but you read into it.
I do seem to remember a Nino Ricardo track with Valderrama but I can't find that.

quote:

I would prefer to see a Phrygian cadence and remate (example: instead it would be A major lydian type melody, or C# minor resolving to G# from F#m or A maj, on 10, contextually).

d4 down to D3 (fourth string) is Lydian and resolves to C# major in "De Chiclana a Cai".
The other examples all imply by melodic fragment, the descending tetrachord or some manifestation thereof which is by definition "phrygian/(lydian)".

Edit: It looks like Ricardo's earliest solo recording was 1954. Paco Aguilera's version with Mairena is from 1951. Unless I can find a concrete version earlier in Ricardo's accompaniment catalog, Aguilera seems to be the first.



Romerito -> RE: Help w/Identifying a Recording (Aug. 24 2023 20:44:03)

quote:

Second graphic B and C have same tab but different notes in the third bar.

Sello Propio, bro![8D][;)]



Ricardo -> RE: Help w/Identifying a Recording (Aug. 25 2023 16:21:40)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Romerito

quote:

Second graphic B and C have same tab but different notes in the third bar.

Sello Propio, bro![8D][;)]


What I meant was C uses the TAB of B (notes E-G#) but the notation doesn’t match in C, it is supposed to be G#-B#.

quote:

Aguilera looks to be the first to move to the relative phrygian in an alegrias context.


What I was saying earlier was he was not “moving” there, which means to me either tonicization or modulation, take your pick. The examples all have the III chord with a raised third degree, on the SECOND measure (or second and third combined) of the compás, meaning, that chord is passing through the phrase, not resolving or exploring the territory of the relative tonality. In “Alegrias context” that means the chord is functioning, due to raised third, as DOMINANT (V/vi), and the fact several examples move to either F#m (ii), or A/C# (IV6) means the passing chord resolves deceptively. The Niño Ricardo examples I mentioned that you also found I guess, are likewise V/vi->vi proper in most cases.

I think it is interesting the dates of Ricardo’s examples are later than Aguilera, however, because it is his style, and he certainly has older recordings going way back, I suspect that you will find Ricardo has an older version hiding somewhere yet to be found. PS, love Cepero breaks the compas in half in your example.



Romerito -> RE: Help w/Identifying a Recording (Aug. 25 2023 19:52:13)

quote:

What I was saying earlier was he was not “moving” there, which means to me either tonicization or modulation, take your pick.

I pick that "moving there" is neither tonicization or modulation. Otherwise, why not just use one of those concepts?
But, since you brought it up modulation encompasses tonicization but tonicization does not encompass modulation. Both treat a chord as a temporary tonal center, but modulation expands the chord as a tonal center. Tonicization can move on immediately without expansion. So, every example fits under a broad reading of tonicization. And every example implies either lydian, phrygian, especially in the notes immediately before the resolutions.

quote:

I think it is interesting the dates of Ricardo’s examples are later than Aguilera, however, because it is his style, and he certainly has older recordings going way back, I suspect that you will find Ricardo has an older version hiding somewhere yet to be found.
I know a few falsetas that begin in phrygian and sound like solea until their resolution to major. I suspect that broader expansions did not occur until Paco, although the pillars and old guys often surprise me.
I am sure Ricardo has a version because I am sure I had an example. I just cannot find it. Ahhh, empiricism...
quote:

PS, love Cepero breaks the compas in half in your example.

Interesting you brought that up because, before flamenco compas got codified in 12s, a full idea, an antecedent phrase, could be realized in six beats. That is exactly what happens in all of the examples.



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