RE: Stretch between fingers 2 and 3? (Full Version)

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devilhand -> RE: Stretch between fingers 2 and 3? (Nov. 5 2023 21:51:42)

quote:

This method is in stark contrast to Segovia’s method.

Never heard of Segovia method. Obviously Segovia himself was influenced by Tarrega and his pupils. You can't deny it.



devilhand -> RE: Stretch between fingers 2 and 3? (Nov. 5 2023 22:29:29)

quote:

and it made me think that very advanced compositions in B major/G#minor must be really fun to play.

On guitar as well. You let open 1st and 2nd string (E and B) ring while changing chords.
This allows us to use interesting chord voicings during accompaniment.



Ricardo -> RE: Stretch between fingers 2 and 3? (Nov. 6 2023 11:42:13)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan

Isaias Savio, in his introduction to "Francisco Tarrega, Doce Composiciones," says that Tarrega played with nails until near the end of his career, when he was obliged to cut them due to defects arising from arteriosclerosis. (Tarrega was a chain smoker.)

"En 1900 su salud inspiró cuidados por manifestarse la arterio-esclerosis, y el maestro ya no pudo pulsar su guitarra con aquel sonido puro y cristalino que tanto había contribuído a sus éxitos, viéndose en cambio obligado a cortarse las uñas por defectos que en ellos aparecían. Pero no se desanimó por ello, sino que siguió estudiando y consiguió realizar audiciones, aunque no de mucha importancía, con buenos efectos de sonoridad."

The publisher Matanya Ophee told me that this echoes verbatim the entry in Domingo Prat's "Diccionario de guitarristas," which he re-published.

RNJ


I will have to dig up Pujol’s book again at my parents house, but the impression I was given was that he dealt with nails (suffered with issues, I assume due to failure to find the right shape) for a long time, but upon discovery that he could produce adequate sound (superior sound is the final opinion of the author) without them, he really pushed this on the students as THE pedagogy. I was frankly surprised what I remember reading, thinking he just did not know how to file flat, but obviously guitar players of his generation were playing with nails and he was advocating something very different. It does not make sense to me that if it was the very end of his career that he made this change (developing the callouses and type of attack required to convince students etc., this was “THE way to go” and not a compromise due to health issues).



Richard Jernigan -> RE: Stretch between fingers 2 and 3? (Nov. 6 2023 22:27:23)

I haven't read Pujol, nor have I spoken to any heirs of the Tarrega school. Since Savio's edition is among the first classical scores I bought (the price is still marked in pencil: $1.50) I probably read what Savio and Prat had to say before I ever heard of "no nails" being Tarrega's doctrine.

In a Segovia biography I read that he was a bit concerned the first time he played in Almeria, for fear of criticism of his playing with nails by the group of Tarrega's students there.

Segovia did spend some time with Tarrega's most famous student Llobet, who played with nails.

RNJ



Richard Jernigan -> RE: Stretch between fingers 2 and 3? (Nov. 7 2023 3:37:32)

Googling Prat, I find that Matanya (RIP) wrote that he was a student of Tarrega. Prat was born in Barcelona, and emigrated to Argentina in 1909. So Prat would have been aware of Tarrega’s circumstances around 1900, when Prat says he cut his nails, and of Tarrega’s claimed change in sonority.

Wikipedia says Pujol began his studies with Tarrega in 1902. At that time Miguel Llobet was beginning his concert career, playing with nails.

Llobet began his studies with Tarrega in 1894. In 1910 Prat arranged a series of Argentinian concerts by Llobet. Llobet remained in Argentina for the next few years

RNJ



Ricardo -> RE: Stretch between fingers 2 and 3? (Nov. 7 2023 13:02:22)

It just seems strange that – due to a physical defect– an entire pedagogy would be based on this. Although, as sort of analogous….no mystery my teacher changed his way to play in 2008 due to an injury. I consider my schooling to be “pre-accident” Nuñez technique (captured for posterity in 2004 by Encuentro, if people can still access that material). In 2022 in class, Gerardo does arpegio P-a-m, avoiding the index stroke for some basic thing….while some of us understood he meant for us to apply normal arpegio, some students where copying his F’ed up approximation of the arpegio. He laughed and was like “no no no!!” And then did it, best he could, like “normal”. I guess it could be that Tarrega’s adaptation to nailess playing was misconstrued by the next generation of Tarrega followers as a deliberate tonal technique concept, leaving not only Segovia, but perhaps other Tarrega students, doing things the “normal” way, having lived through an earlier period.



Ricardo -> RE: Stretch between fingers 2 and 3? (Nov. 7 2023 13:15:49)

quote:

Never heard of Segovia method. Obviously Segovia himself was influenced by Tarrega and his pupils. You can't deny it.


As I said earlier, he used the repertoire, but that alone is not a “method”. Methods involve technique and his filmed masterclasses more than demonstrate his teaching concepts (how could you claim never hearing about his Method/school of guitar playing????? Wow. He published tons of music scores to boot). Right off the bat the left hand is just as Andaluz as any gitano flamenco guitarist. He was not pushing it, as practically zero of his students pick up on it which I find amusing. So considering left hand tech, nails on the other hands, etc, yes I can easily deny a strong Tarrega influence. It is further amusing to me that people think that just because the flamenco guitar community at the same time did not publish music scores, that they did not have a “pedagogy”, and only the “classical” guitar community had technical things to impart on the flamencos, and nothing vice versa. Silly. However, Segovia’s opinion of flamenco guitar being noise certainly was part of the problem there.



devilhand -> RE: Stretch between fingers 2 and 3? (Nov. 7 2023 21:20:21)

quote:

Googling Prat, I find that Matanya (RIP) wrote that he was a student of Tarrega.

Are you referring to this source?

https://www.digitalguitararchive.com/2022/02/a-brief-history-of-spanish-guitar-methods/



devilhand -> RE: Stretch between fingers 2 and 3? (Nov. 7 2023 21:25:20)

quote:

As I said earlier, he used the repertoire, but that alone is not a “method”. Methods involve technique and his filmed masterclasses more than demonstrate his teaching concepts (how could you claim never hearing about his Method/school of guitar playing?????

I believe the Tarrega method doesn't depend on playing with nail or fingertip. The point is things we take for granted in classical guitar playing today can be traced back to his teaching method. But I have to admit everything is vague here.



Richard Jernigan -> RE: Stretch between fingers 2 and 3? (Nov. 7 2023 22:06:49)

A friend who lived in Dallas hosted Segovia at his house when he came to the cIty to play a concert. He said he heard Segovia warming up playing flamenco in the mornings.

Some say that Segovia’s attacks pertained only to virtuoso flamenco soloists like Ramon Montoya and Sabicas. Montoya attracted notice among the musical cognoscenti in Paris comparable to Segovia’s first impression there.

Sitting at the bar of the club Zambra in New York City in 1962 I mentioned to the middle aged Spaniard sitting next to me that Sabicas was rumored to be coming to the after hours juerga. The Spaniard, a regular customer and apparent aficionado, responded that he would rather listen to Fernando Sirvent, the house guitarist-who functioned exclusively as accompanist to singers and dancers.

In fact Sabicas acted mostly as accompanist at the juergas, and generously shared the stage with other guitarists. He soloed only when a number of people repeatedly asked him to.

RNJ



Richard Jernigan -> RE: Stretch between fingers 2 and 3? (Nov. 8 2023 4:21:56)

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

quote:

Googling Prat, I find that Matanya (RIP) wrote that he was a student of Tarrega.

Are you referring to this source?

https://www.digitalguitararchive.com/2022/02/a-brief-history-of-spanish-guitar-methods/


No.

RNJ



Ricardo -> RE: Stretch between fingers 2 and 3? (Nov. 8 2023 11:49:06)

quote:

The point is things we take for granted in classical guitar playing


Speak for yourself.

Important things to consider in his bio. First, his dad was considered a “flamenco” guitarist by someone (would love to track that source), at a time when the word is just starting to be used to describe the music. He sounds like a privileged brat by the way he would “run away”, yet get all these rich patrons. He had early lessons with Arcas, which I was gonna assume was more foundational to classical guitar than any “method” of his own, so not surprising. Then as a teen he runs away and lives with gypsies. Again….why people don’t want to accept that flamenco guitar is technically providing much to classical guitarists, is beyond me. His story reads like Jessie Cook to me, and thus explains his “fakemenco” trajectory perfectly well. [:D][:D]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_Tarrega



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