Contrapalmas (Full Version)

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Ron.M -> Contrapalmas (Apr. 5 2006 15:52:28)

What's the "secret" of doing contrapalmas?
Is there a specific technique or way of thinking about it?
It's very tricky to do...[:-]

(I mean the "real" stuff...not recording two tracks and shifting one by a half beat [:D])

cheers

Ron




Ricardo -> RE: Contrapalmas (Apr. 5 2006 17:51:49)

You have to hear and feel this in your head, thinking about subdivision. Think of a beat divided into 4 notes. 1,2,3,4. The contras would be numbers 2 and 4. So you need to learn how to hear and play this rhythm:
FOOT2 (3) 4FOOT2 (3) 4

So you have your foot on 1, you clap on 2 and 4, but 3 is totally silent. The sound is:
toma, que toma, que toma, Where your foot is on "to", and you clap "ma" and "que". Perhaps you have heard that jaleos before.

This works in bulerias say, if your foot is on 12,2,4,6,8,10. But what if you want to do contras for the 3 beat accent (12,3,6,9)? Then you subdivide by 6.

FOOT2 (3) 4 (5) 6FOOT2 (3) 4 (5) 6

Here, 3 and 5 are silent and you clap 2,4,6. The sound would be:

toma tah, que toma tah, que toma tah, etc. That one is a little harder IMO.

Either way you need to feel the beat with the foot, and clap "around it" so to speak. When you practice with the metronome, you have the click with the foot obviously. When going slow, the click can be the foot and 3, or foot,3, and 5, so your claps are in between the clicks.

When you can get that going at about 200 bpm, then do the same speed at 100 bpm, where the foot is the only thing on the click (for the 4 subdivision. Not sure of the equivalent bpm for the 6 note division. I think it is 70-80 bpm?). That is the better way, then get faster from there.

The problem is people tend to do the clap on count 2 a little late, and after count 4, come in too early with the foot. That is the whole reason people tend to rush or drag. Once you get the groove going, concentrate on EVENESS of the claps. There are EXACTLY the same speed as the on beat claps (or click).

Ricardo




Florian -> RE: Contrapalmas (Apr. 5 2006 18:09:59)

Every thing that Ricardo said.

The biggest secret is using your foot .


In buleria I do, F=foot

F 1 F 3 F 5 F 7 F 9 F 11 etc.etc.




Jon Boyes -> RE: Contrapalmas (Apr. 5 2006 20:24:33)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo
So you need to learn how to hear and play this rhythm:
FOOT2 (3) 4FOOT2 (3) 4

So you have your foot on 1, you clap on 2 and 4, but 3 is totally silent.


[8|] I'm trying to see what you mean with this but you lost me completely there.

(good question Ron!)




Ricardo -> RE: Contrapalmas (Apr. 5 2006 20:39:19)

I am not refering to the counts in solea compas or whatever, just simple mathematical subdivision. You can also think of it like 16th note subdivision.

1e&ah, 2e&ah, etc. Your foot comes on 1, 2, etc, you clap "e" and "ah", but "&" is silent.

If you have another palmero clap straight eighth notes (1 &, 2 &, etc) the combined sound is straight 16th notes, taka taka taka etc. But the proper way to FEEL the contras is against the foot like I described. At least that is the easiest way to learn how to do it really fast.

Ricardo




Ron.M -> RE: Contrapalmas (Apr. 5 2006 21:22:19)

Ricardo,
Thanks for taking the time to explain this, but I still don't completely see it.
I'll maybe have to think about it awhile to let it sink through.
I must admit, on the first reading I feel a bit like Jon here...

Maybe it's best explained on a one-to-one basis, rather than by written words/symbols.
Would it be possible to explain this in a video perhaps?

(Can you make it free?) [:D][:D][:D]

cheers

Ron

PS: Actually the reason this entered my head was because of Jon's post about sites closing down after you sign up.
A long time ago, Dimitri said he was going to do a "contrapalmas" video on Flamenco Teacher, so I signed up for a subscription mainly to see how it was done.
But sadly he threw a wobbly and pulled the plug on the site before it appeared.
(Thus validating Jon's view on subscription type agreements)
No sweat though...Dimitri's a good guy and I enjoyed the site, so $30 or so is the least I could have paid for his dedication in running that forum all those early years.




Florian -> RE: Contrapalmas (Apr. 5 2006 21:33:05)

Hey, i dont know if this helps but i did quic recording of how i do buleria contra, and i have made the footsound really obvious, first slow second with compas.

Is probably not spot on cause i didnt try really hard but i think its good enough to get the idea.


http://www.foroflamenco.com/upfiles/36/Ol31268.mp3




koella -> RE: Contrapalmas (Apr. 5 2006 21:40:05)

Must be my philosophical insignificant working class stupidity Ron.
But I don't understand how you can play that cypres buleria and not get this clapping.

It's just:

foot - clap - silence - clap
1-----2-----3--------4

Just count, fill in the sounds and add a little speed. That's all.




Ron.M -> RE: Contrapalmas (Apr. 5 2006 21:40:51)

Thanks Flo!
This sort of stuff is new to me since I don't play with other people.

Cheers mate,

Ron




Florian -> RE: Contrapalmas (Apr. 5 2006 21:43:56)

Np thats understandable.

Its quite eazy once u practice it, is where my solo compas cds came in handy.

There is one Called "Palmas" is quite good to practice this to.




Ron.M -> RE: Contrapalmas (Apr. 5 2006 21:46:35)

Koella,
I think it's one of these things like patting your head and rubbing your tummy...
It's the way of "seeing" it that counts.
(Of course I know the mathematics of contras...it's just being able to get my hands to move at the right time [:D])
Maybe I've got a contras "block"?[:-]
I used to have an alzapua block at one time, until one day it dawned on me...

cheers

Ron




koella -> RE: Contrapalmas (Apr. 5 2006 21:51:28)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M
I used to have an alzapua block at one time, until one day it dawned on me...


I know what you mean Ron. I'm waiting for the dawning. And not only for alzapua[&:]




Ricardo -> RE: Contrapalmas (Apr. 5 2006 21:56:44)

Hey florian that could help but it is too noisy. We are hearing the poly rhythm, contras and on beats. Could you make a recording of ONLY your contra palmas and foot, like half this speed so they can hear what you are doing.

Ricardo




Florian -> RE: Contrapalmas (Apr. 5 2006 22:17:58)

K, hope this is clearer.

I start it very very slow

http://www.foroflamenco.com/upfiles/36/Ge96175.mp3




c -> RE: Contrapalmas (Apr. 5 2006 22:38:47)

Ok.... my wife is a dancer
She is reading this with me and says......
The clap is simply on the + for bulerias contra tiempo palmas
12+1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10+11+12+1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10
foot on the beat ...palmas on the +

simple until you start adding more palmeros

c and s (s is for Shelley)




Florian -> RE: Contrapalmas (Apr. 5 2006 22:47:47)

Yes, exactly what we been saying and doing.

Ignore my first reply, i knew what i meant in my head but my explonation skills let me down , thats why i just did the quic audio.

I left pause in the 11 in my audios to make it more distinct but u can go all the way trough without pause obviously.




c -> RE: Contrapalmas (Apr. 5 2006 23:11:02)

ya florian
after I heard your example I realized you might have
described it different than you meant to.
Ricardos discription is for more complex palmas
that takes more than one person
c




Ricardo -> RE: Contrapalmas (Apr. 6 2006 3:00:09)

Ok, what I was trying to explain ain't getting through. Florian you tapped your foot to every beat and clapped in between. Conrad and wife are describing the same. Ok, I am saying the foot is ONLY on the accented beats (like 12, 3,6,8,10, or 12,2,4,6,8,10), but you still do all the + claps. The sound you create by yourself is a certain rhythm that is pretty easy to lock into so you can do very fast contras without needing to take a reading from the other palmero. You only need to lock into the accented beats.
12+ + +3+ + +6+ +8+ +10+ + repeat.

Anybody get it now? I am giving up on this until I can record it somehow.

Ricardo




Conrad -> RE: Contrapalmas (Apr. 6 2006 4:21:34)

Whoa, Ricardo, dude... I'm not married... "c" is someone else, living elsewhere in Canada. That's why I wanted to change my profile. Just FYI, I'm 21 and far from married. hehehe

Conrad Adams ("cnotecon") [now changed to "Conrad" - Thanks Simon]

p.s. I'm right there with you on this one, brother. Good teaching. Can't help bad learning. Just jostling you guys... [;)]




Florian -> RE: Contrapalmas (Apr. 6 2006 6:38:07)

Yes Ricardo i get it [:)], there are many different combinations u can do. I didnt record the combination u were talking about, i recorded the combination i was talking about.

I know the rythms u talking about and i can record it if u dont wanna record it yourself.

I just did the 1 way, keped it pretty easy and straight foward.

Someone that hasent done contra before should probably use the foot every beat to to insure your compas is spot on otherise u can very easily go out.




Ron.M -> RE: Contrapalmas (Apr. 6 2006 8:39:06)

quote:

The sound you create by yourself is a certain rhythm that is pretty easy to lock into so you can do very fast contras without needing to take a reading from the other palmero.


Ah! This makes more sense, but again, I'll have to think about it.
The trouble is that palmas/contrapalmas is not a solitary activity, so that's why folk who just study Flamenco guitar on their own never get a chance to pick it up, unlike those of you who play in dance schools or are part of a group.
Also it's not the sort of thing you can practise in a spare moment at work or sitting in a Dentist's waiting room. [:D][:D].

One of the reasons I mentioned "technique" is that.. when I see someone on stage switch from straight palmas to contras, it looks to me that they seem to separate their hands much more during contras..ie a much "wider" clap, which made me think that they are locking in on "something else"? Maybe it's just my imagination? [:-]

cheers

Ron




Ron.M -> RE: Contrapalmas (Apr. 6 2006 9:42:27)

Right...to simplify this..
I'm talking about just working with another palmero....no particular compás or palo, but just producing the simple "takatakatakataka" sound.
One person is clapping "ta" and the other "ka".

Using both hands on a table top, I can make the left hand tap a steady "ta" while my right hand does "ka"...so that proves my brain knows what to do.

However...no way can I make my foot do "ta" and clap my hands to the "ka"...

It feels like trying to juggle with three balls...the same kind of mental block.

If I put on a record of straight "ta" claps, I can't seem to clap "ka", but am constantly drawn back into the "ta".[:@]

Just an interesting memory here...

In Madrid I used to see very young kids (non-Flamencos) playing clapping games in the street which went:

clap clap clap, clap clap clap, takatakataka, clap clap clap (like Alegrias dance solo).
Just straight 3/4 rhythm.

They would do it over and over, gradually increasing the length of the takataka section until it was just pure takatakatakatakatakataka.

cheers

Ron




Ricardo -> RE: Contrapalmas (Apr. 6 2006 18:26:11)

quote:

Whoa, Ricardo, dude... I'm not married... "c" is someone else, living elsewhere in Canada. That's why I wanted to change my profile. Just FYI, I'm 21 and far from married. hehehe



[:D][:D][:D] SORRY MAN! I was reading fast. Did not think you were married to a dancer either!

quote:

If I put on a record of straight "ta" claps, I can't seem to clap "ka", but am constantly drawn back into the "ta".



Ron, that is what I was talking about before. You need to learn to subdivide the beat using your foot on every other "ta". You keep getting pulled into the "ta" gravity because YOU like everyone else, tends to drag the first "ka" and rush the other "ka" or the "ka" before the beat makes you want to rush into the "ta". If you can't learn to use your foot to help you subdivide and do poly rhythm (taKA....KAtaKA.....KAtaKA) then you will never be able to do it fast, just trying to stick your claps inbetween the others. You have to feel it as its own separate rhythm.

Ricardo




Miguel de Maria -> RE: Contrapalmas (Apr. 6 2006 23:39:47)

Ricardo,
thanks for the tip! I tried the toma que, with the toe taps on teh to, and finally started to "get it". Great idea!




Ron.M -> RE: Contrapalmas (Apr. 7 2006 9:36:27)

quote:

you will never be able to do it fast, just trying to stick your claps inbetween the others. You have to feel it as its own separate rhythm.


Thanks Ricardo,
I'm sure this is the "key"...this makes a lot of sense.
I'll work on that.

cheers

Ron




Miguel de Maria -> RE: Contrapalmas (Apr. 7 2006 15:58:35)

Ron,
to reiterate what Ricardo said, it's a specific "sound"...you know how the "gallop" dum, da a dum da da dum... If you hear it, you know it, it has it's own personality. I think the toma que toma is the same way, once you get it, you can really start to use it...




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