RE: Advise on buying a new Conde 2023 (Full Version)

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Chanpanpap -> RE: Advise on buying a new Conde 2023 (Mar. 10 2023 0:02:05)

Thanks everyone! this has been so helpful but Im still making up my mind, I think Ill go and try them myself,

I dont really mind who made the guitar what Im interested is in the sound of the guitar and quality of the guitar, and they have been at the top for a reason doesn't matter who makes them. IF anyone is really interested to see 100% of the job then become a luthier [:D]. Of course there are other things, Im almost settling for a Atocha because Im a decent player not pro, just a huge fan of the saga,

has anyone know the differences on the sounds from a Atocha - MC - Felipe?

I know the finishes are quite different on some, I spoke with Atocha and you can get really good MRW for half the price of a Mariano, and for the price of a Mariano rather go with Felipe.

Regards



JasonM -> RE: Advise on buying a new Conde 2023 (Mar. 10 2023 16:25:24)

I didn’t listen to the interview… did this guy say he did the soundboard thickness\bracing? Or just the assembly?



orsonw -> RE: Advise on buying a new Conde 2023 (Mar. 10 2023 17:55:44)

quote:

I didn’t listen to the interview… did this guy say he did the soundboard thickness\bracing? Or just the assembly?


He got pre-made parts roughly made, and then did final thickness, brace shaving etc..



Ricardo -> RE: Advise on buying a new Conde 2023 (Mar. 10 2023 18:04:46)

quote:

Eventually is really that important to you who is the actual maker of your guitar?


Well, of course. As you know Ramirez III used to let his workers stamp the initials. AT first this did not matter, but in the future it eventually really does. Martinez, Contreras, Valbuena, Manzanero, etc, it matters. Like Segovia and his “santos built” Manuel Ramirez. Of course the guy with the name on the label wants to say nothing gets past his criteria, but we know, in the end, there are different characteristics between those individual builders and it would be good to know that. Anyway, I had a discussion with Crespo off line about this situation and got clarification.



Echi -> RE: Advise on buying a new Conde 2023 (Mar. 10 2023 18:10:47)

As everybody else in Madrid.
In 2015 I got a Manuel Caceres guitar, the guy used to work for the shop of Arcangel.
To make it short he sent me some pictures of the set he was about to use and basically they were roughly thicknessed parts ready to assemble.
I came to know from Manuel, Felix Manzanero and José Romero that this was the way it has always been done in the Ramirez shop and keeps being done today by everybody there.
Some luthiers have now opened a business for the purpose and charge you 150 euro for a quality pre-made neck (not rounded) and something else for the work of preparation of the plates. They work the wood in your stock.
Also the varnishing is outsourced.
This process cuts the work hours down and eventually doesn't change anything in the final result.
The new thing the guy said is that he was making the flamenco guitars for the Conde Hermanos Felipe V workshop, which is no news, but anyway..



Ricardo -> RE: Advise on buying a new Conde 2023 (Mar. 10 2023 18:10:57)

quote:

has anyone know the differences on the sounds from a Atocha - MC - Felipe?


I do. But it is based on ones I have played, which might be based on the years. For example Atocha examples from mid 2000’s and earlier. As I said, Ricardo sAnchis/Hermanos Sanchis Lopez were the same, ie, very good and affordable. Nunez and Chicuelo had these guitars. I compared the Felipe, Crespo, and Mariano days apart in 2014. I think I have been clear of what I experienced. But again the sounds are subjective and based on when they are in my hands. I did an objective blind test with my own guitars and discovered I can’t tell one from the other after recorded.



Echi -> RE: Advise on buying a new Conde 2023 (Mar. 10 2023 18:13:11)

quote:

Well, of course. As you know Ramirez III used to let his workers stamp the initials. AT first this did not matter, but in the future it eventually really does.

I think everybody learned the lesson from Ramirez and would try to avoid to share the names of the collarators to avoid competitors in the future.
In fact the same Ramirez III stopped to share the names.



Ricardo -> RE: Advise on buying a new Conde 2023 (Mar. 10 2023 18:21:07)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Echi

quote:

Well, of course. As you know Ramirez III used to let his workers stamp the initials. AT first this did not matter, but in the future it eventually really does.

I think everybody learned the lesson from Ramirez and would try to avoid to share the names of the collarators to avoid competitors in the future.
In fact the same Ramirez III stopped to share the names.


That implies Santos competes with Manuel Ramirez, and Manzanero competes with Ramirez III? Sorry, I mean in the future when competition is over and we are dealing with vintage used instruments. I mean, this gentleman can now claim his own guitars as relevant as the Felipe V Condes of that era, just like these other guys did after not working for Ramirez. That is not “competition” any more, the era is over. Ramirez III clearly listed every body that worked for him since 60’s and 70’s in his book of 1990’s, with the clear implication that if you want a good Ramirez level guitar from the 70’s, those are your guys to look for today (90s) for new models. 20 years has passed for Conde and I think the market should know who build what guitar.



Echi -> RE: Advise on buying a new Conde 2023 (Mar. 10 2023 19:33:36)

I meant that Bernabé, Contreras, Manzanero, Romero etc. became competitors of Ramirez III (and still are) as the customers came to know that these makers used to make the actual Ramirez guitars.
In fact Ramirez III stopped with the stamp thing and while there's a record they are not happy when asked to share this info.
Amalia also wrote it in their website: a Ramirez guitar is a Ramirez guitar.

There is a grey area though.
Many makers - not speaking specifically of Conde now) just outsource their guitars to a different maker: They give them the woods and the plan and pay them when they get the finished guitar (but varnished).
This custom is very spread unfortunately.
For instance is well known that Mariano Tezanos made guitars for Paulino Bernabé, or Manuel Caceres for Arcangel or Marcelino Lopez Nieto for Hernandez y Aguado or Javier Latano for Conde Atocha. These are not speculations but well known facts.



Chanpanpap -> RE: Advise on buying a new Conde 2023 (Mar. 10 2023 19:40:05)

quote:

hat implies Santos competes with Manuel Ramirez, and Manzanero competes with Ramirez III? Sorry, I mean in the future when competition is over and we are dealing with vintage used instruments. I mean, this gentleman can now claim his own guitars as relevant as the Felipe V Condes of that era, just like these other guys did after not working for Ramirez. That is not “competition” any more, the era is over. Ramirez III clearly listed every body that worked for him since 60’s and 70’s in his book of 1990’s, with the clear implication that if you want a good Ramirez level guitar from the 70’s, those are your guys to look for today (90s) for new models. 20 years has passed for Conde and I think the market should know who build what guitar.


So to be clear, Atochas are good but not as good as a Felipe or MC, btw felipe conde crespo claims hes actually making them 100%, at least assembly. I like that but still, not feeling confident on breaking the bank for it... thats almost 3.900eur for first deposit, thats a full atocha



Morante -> RE: Advise on buying a new Conde 2023 (Mar. 10 2023 20:18:37)

Forget Conde. Buy a Jerónimo Perez: he works alone, without help, just distractions from his children. Paco Cepero plays one and Miguel Salado has five[;)] you could buy a better guitar for the amount of your deposit.



Escribano -> RE: Advise on buying a new Conde 2023 (Mar. 10 2023 22:27:51)

Yep, like buying a Gibson now



Echi -> RE: Advise on buying a new Conde 2023 (Mar. 11 2023 8:34:16)

New Condes are expensive but they’re not bad guitars at all. Some are excellent.
I just find that the best ratio is a good Conde or Bellido or Ramirez in the 2nd hand market.
Some of these guitars and particularly some old Conde are just gems.
I don’t mention here the usual Reyes, Barba, Gerundino etc. because they are too expensive also in the second hand market .

Among the new makers Jeronimo is growing fast, no doubt.
The guy of the video looks like a deal too.
quote:

So to be clear, Atochas are good but not as good as a Felipe or MC

Never said that. Soundwise they are absolutely there.
Felipe’ and Mariano’s build at a higher standard and thosr of Felipe have a better resale value even though they don’t necessarily sound better.



Chanpanpap -> RE: Advise on buying a new Conde 2023 (Mar. 17 2023 20:15:16)

Correct, but still itching for a Conde, dont know if you know that feeling...

Currently really thinking about Felipe, but I guess I can wait for this autumn to go to spain and see for myself... mostly listen



Richard Jernigan -> RE: Advise on buying a new Conde 2023 (Mar. 18 2023 4:16:34)

From the mid-1960s to the early 1990s I traveled regulary to Europe on business. Fairly often I would stop off in Madrid and buy a couple of cedar/rosewood 1a classicals from Jose Ramirez III. He always kept at least 5 or 6 instruments in stock to choose from. I could sell them in the USA for enough to pay for a round trip ticket from Texas to Spain. Ramirez knew what I was doing, and didn't object to my micro-competition with his U.S. distributor Jim Sherry, with whom he had an occasionally stormy relationship.

During the time that the luthier's initials were stamped on the heel of the neck, my conclusion was that there was about as much variation in the output from one luthier as there was across the whole group. The variability increased slightly when Ramirez commissioned more oficiales in the 1970s, but there weren't any bad guitars--if I excepted those with action that was just too high for my taste.

Ramirez publicly described the process. Apprentices made parts to supply the journeyman luthiers. Tops were all thicknessed to the same dimension by the apprentices, but the journeyman luthiers were expected to do the final thicknessing, taking off somewhere around a half millimeter from the prepared top, the exact amount depending upon the luthier's judgment of the character of the piece of wood.

Later, when I visited Contreras padre, Bernabe padre and Manzanero padre, they all spoke with considerable emphaisis about Ramirez's rigid requirement that they stick absolutely precisely to his design. My idea is that this accounts for the similarity of all the instruments that came out of Jose III's workshop.

By the early '90s the instruments of the three Ramirez alumni displayed individualized character. Each luthier had by then diverged in his own way from Ramirez's design. I don't feel that I played enough instruments from any of the three to get an idea of how much they might vary. But just about every luthier I have talked to seriously has said that they don't all turn out the same.

Both Jose and Liam Romanillos have said the main determinant of a guitar's quality is the wood for the top. I think in their case their skill as luthiers enters strongly into the equation. Maybe they are indicating that the variation in their uniformly brilliant output is due to the wood.

RNJ



Chanpanpap -> RE: Advise on buying a new Conde 2023 (Mar. 18 2023 14:47:50)

HI foreros, lately I see A LOT of Gavina 7 guitars on prestige condition are they fake? actually one im interested in but it seems funny, I mean they look all the same to me but its weird that their the exact same color, is this fake?

best regards



Ricardo -> RE: Advise on buying a new Conde 2023 (Mar. 18 2023 17:12:16)

Define fake, and show an example



Chanpanpap -> RE: Advise on buying a new Conde 2023 (Mar. 20 2023 22:38:34)

Hi everyone, I wanna thank everyone on this foro, every comment

I have purchased a Hermanos Conde from 1999, all the specs I was searching for,

Top: Cedar
Back and Sides: Indian rosewood
Scale lenght: 662mm
12 fret 3mm
saddle;bridge:10mm

amazing sound!,

only thing is the color is orange, but I guess I can ask for everything for the price I purchased it....

Im very pleased with my purchase, has been 4-5months of hunting for it!

Ill post the pictures sure!



Doitsujin -> RE: Advise on buying a new Conde 2023 (Mar. 21 2023 12:24:27)

quote:

Hi everyone, I wanna thank everyone on this foro, every comment

I have purchased a Hermanos Conde from 1999, all the specs I was searching for,

Top: Cedar
Back and Sides: Indian rosewood
Scale lenght: 662mm
12 fret 3mm
saddle;bridge:10mm

amazing sound!,

only thing is the color is orange, but I guess I can ask for everything for the price I purchased it....

Im very pleased with my purchase, has been 4-5months of hunting for it!

Ill post the pictures sure!


How much did you pay?



JasonM -> RE: Advise on buying a new Conde 2023 (Mar. 21 2023 13:42:40)

How is the pulcasion?



estebanana -> RE: Advise on buying a new Conde 2023 (Mar. 21 2023 14:28:25)

C



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px



devilhand -> RE: Advise on buying a new Conde 2023 (Mar. 21 2023 20:54:19)

quote:

saddle;bridge:10mm

I hope you can lower it down to 8mm.



Echi -> RE: Advise on buying a new Conde 2023 (Mar. 22 2023 8:21:47)

Neck angle is perfectly ok with 10 mm at the saddle and 3 mm at the 12th.
This set up happens when the fretboard is purposely not sloped on the bass side.
It’s the same set up of Reyes and the long scale Conde of the eighties.
Of course you have to try the guitar to see what is the best set up.



Ricardo -> RE: Advise on buying a new Conde 2023 (Mar. 22 2023 10:50:18)

quote:

Neck angle is perfectly ok with 10 mm at the saddle and 3 mm at the 12th.


yes, perfectly ok classical guitar set up.



orsonw -> RE: Advise on buying a new Conde 2023 (Mar. 22 2023 15:53:44)

quote:

long scale Conde of the eighties.


Not in my experience of five guitars from Gravina 1984 to 1987. All had bridge height around 7-8mm with 2.75/3mm at 12th fret.
There are several 80s Gravina in Solera's sold section. I can't find one that has 10mm at the bridge, they're all around 7-8mm.

https://www.flamencoguitarsforsale.net/hermanos-conde-2/

The 'cigarette test' for flamenco bridge height is well known.
"...the usual diameter of a conventional cigarette is 7.5 to 8.0 (circumference 23.6 to 25.1) millimeter (mm)...)
Talhout R, Richter PA, Stepanov I, Watson CV, Watson CH. Cigarette Design Features: Effects on Emission Levels, User Perception, and Behavior. Tob Regul Sci. 2018 Jan;4(1):592-604. doi: 10.18001/TRS.4.1.6. PMID: 29250577; PMCID: PMC5730088.



Echi -> RE: Advise on buying a new Conde 2023 (Mar. 22 2023 17:36:39)

quote:

yes, perfectly ok classical guitar set up.

I explained this may be caused by a mm more in the fretboard at the bass side 12th fret (so 6 mm of fretboard instead of the usual 5mm) , which means the neck angle is exactly the same as 8 mm at the bridge and 3 mm at the 12th fret.
I also wrote than in my experience many long scale Conde of the eighties have this set up as many Reyes (usually Reyes stands at 9 mm).
This comes from having measured many, owning some anche checked the usual websites. The website of Solera shows just a huge variety..
8 mm at the bridge and 3 at the 12th nowadays is the standard but it's far from being a rule.



orsonw -> RE: Advise on buying a new Conde 2023 (Mar. 22 2023 17:52:55)

quote:

The website of Solera shows just a huge variety..


I'm not sure what you mean? Here are measurements of the Solera sold 1980s media lunas, most are very close. 12 guitars are between 7mm-8.2mm at bridge.

12th fret/bridge
2.6/7.5
2.7/7.9
2.9/8.2
2.6/7.6
2.5/7.8
3/7
3.4/7.5
2.4/7.4
2.2/7.3
2.6/8
2.6/7.6
2.5/7.3

Only two outliers:
A 1982 second class media luna is 2.4/10, maybe that's why it's second class?
And Pacos 1980 negra with 650 scale 2.8/9mm

Same story at Mundo flamenco, sold 1980s Media lunas. 10 guitars. All around 8mm one at 8.7mm.

https://www.mundo-flamenco.com



Echi -> RE: Advise on buying a new Conde 2023 (Mar. 22 2023 18:46:57)

I mean that to add/remove 0.5 mm action at the 12th fret you have to add/remove 1 mm at the bridge.
Let's take the guitar of Paco: 2.8 mm action at the 12th fret and 9 at the bridge which is in line with many Reyes: when you bring the action at 3 mm you will have 9.4 mm at the bridge: Not far from the numbers of the Conde this guy bought.
If you look at the post of Tom Blackshair trying to explain the action of Reyes you will find some points of contact.

Second aspect is that if you shave down 1 mm of the fretboard (bass side) you'll get 3 mm action and 8 mm at the saddle: again there's no wrong neck angle but just a thick fretboard.

40 years old second hand guitars have likely a different set up than when they were born or at least it's unpredictable how original they are at this stage: it's enough you change the frets or the bones and everything change but the neck angle.
I for one keep a record of some Conde guitars I set up when I used to do it as a job and I noticed that in the eighties a specific kind of Conde guitars with a certain large plantilla and fan bracing has the set up I reported.



orsonw -> RE: Advise on buying a new Conde 2023 (Mar. 22 2023 20:12:42)

quote:

40 years old second hand guitars have likely a different set up than when they were born


Sure, but flamencos were testing with a 7.5/8mm cigarette under the strings when these guitars were new in the 1980s. 7.5/8mm at the bridge has been a preferred height for a long time, it's not something new.

I suppose the Condes you've seen with 10mm at the bridge are uncommon exceptions to the 7-8.5mm norm?



Echi -> RE: Advise on buying a new Conde 2023 (Mar. 22 2023 22:23:15)

I have currently 5 guitars and 4 of them are around 8 mm at the bridge saddle and one at 9.4. I’ve had guitars even lower than 8.
You see, I’ve found some Condes of 78 - 82 with long scales and yet extremely playable and “soft” under the fingers. I won’t use here the P word not to get astray off topic.
I noticed that those guitars used to have a specific set up with a slightly higher action at the bridge and yet quite a low action at the 12th fret. Neck angle was right but the way the fretboard was worked made the difference.
A couple of mm at the bridge changes something in the torque and have a perceivable effect on the tone on flamenco guitars.
I’m not saying this works always. Probably it doesn’t given the standard is 8 mm. I can tell you though that for what I noticed this worked well for the Conde I tested, imho contributing to an ideal tension on the top.



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